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Bore gauges are fun. Bring one to the club one day, then watch the crowd gather. It is always amusing to see the looks on peoples faces when a measurement is different than what they were expecting.
 
Pretty sure I am using the software correctly. I made a stick 30" long. I made marks horizontally and vertically 30" apart and set the arrows on the marks in the software. I did zoom way in and checked every green dot. I blocked off false reads and added in hole the software missed. I slowly scrolled across the entire image and checked every hole.
Sounds like you're doing it right.
 
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Bore gauges are fun. Bring one to the club one day, then watch the crowd gather. It is always amusing to see the looks on peoples faces when a measurement is different than what they were expecting.
I have a bore gauge with heads for 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. It’s saved me and my friends thousands of dollars while used gun shopping and lets me know what chokes I actually have. Yes, it gathers a crowd. My gun cradle and measuring tools for drop, cast and lop are an even bigger hit!
 
Discussion starter · #24 ·
OK, my inside bore gauges only go up to .5 inch so I can't use my micrometer but I can do something quick with my caliper.
Briley full is supposed to .035 constriction. I am getting .705-.706 so that looks as expected
Briley Light full is supposed to be .030 constriction, I am getting .7095 so also as expected.
Briley IM is supposed to be .025 constriction. I am getting .7145. I have not shot that one yet.

Browning F I am getting .700
Browning LF I am getting .712
That is as good as I can do until I get a larger bore feeler. Others have measure Browing DS chokes and that is what the other posts also say.
 
So, I got bored tonight. Yes, I had nothing to do, and I hade a bore gauge. So, I measured my two brownings Invector Plus.
Citori XT - Bore = .741, full choke=.709 for .032 constriction
BT-99 ( early gen 2) Bore= .738 full choke = .709 for .029 constriction.
I have one IM choke at .715 (stainless steel) and another at .722 (black)
And two Mod at .729

So many of my Browning Invector Plus tubes have less constriction than expected, and my BT 99 is not back bored as much as my XT, meaning my invector plus choke tubes have even less constriction in my BT 99. My browning full chokes are close enough if you consider .030 as full, many would not consider that full. Both my Mod chokes are closer to Impoved cylinder. One IM is spot on, the other not constricted enough.

That's why having a bore gauge is so much fun. Actual dimensions can be all over the place, at least where thousandths of an inch are concerned. Also good to know if I ever earn any yardage and want a true full choke for my BT99

BTW: I bought this one 20 years ago: Skeets shotgun bore gauge standard length 12.5” reading depth | eBay. Made in China, but A LOT less expensive than some of the other ones I have seen. And it works well enough for what we are talking about using it for in this thread.
 
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Not to throw a damper on your work, but Browning tells us themselves their DS tubes throw different patterns than most other chokes, although the largest difference seems to be in constrictions looser than most use for trap shooting. There is no magic here though, as it accomplished by using looser constrictions in a given choke designation than their competitors. You proved chokes with constrictions between .030" and .040", regardless of what designation is attached by the manufacturer, are suitable for breaking targets at 30 yards. That isn't exactly ground breaking news, as it replicates what Dr. Jones, Neil, and Tim have already told us. Perhaps repeat your patterning at 40 yards and determine what constriction you find minimally acceptable at that range, then you're all set to determine which choke(s) you want to use based on constriction, but I'll bet it will be right in line with what Dr. Jones, Neil, and Tim have already told us. If it were me, and it was when I shot a 725, I'd screw it the Browning Full (mine was .040") and be done with it.

Invector-DS - Shotgun Choke Tubes - Browning

Not to take anything away from your efforts, as confirmation of past tests certainly has value, but it seems you have proven:

1. Only constriction, not manufacturer designation, matters.
2. There is nothing new under the sun.
 
Discussion starter · #28 ·
Not to throw a damper on your work
Not at all and thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed my main motivation. Comments were made in another thread like:
"Browning chokes are good for paper weights"
"Just throw them away"
"Browning chokes don't perform. Many of my student have this out the hard way"
etc.
Plus, there is that You Tube video I mentioned which in a single shot tends to make the Browning choke look bad.

When I asked in that thread for some details on exactly how Browning chokes didn't perform, I got no replies. So I wanted to see for myself and I picked Briley as one aftermarket choke to compare with.

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see any particular performance problem with my Browning DS chokes. I just wanted to see for myself with my load, my gun and my chokes.
 
Not at all and thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed my main motivation. Comments were made in another thread like:
"Browning chokes are good for paper weights"
"Just throw them away"
"Browning chokes don't perform. Many of my student have this out the hard way"
etc.
Plus, there is that You Tube video I mentioned which in a single shot tends to make the Browning choke look bad.

When I asked in that thread for some details on exactly how Browning chokes didn't perform, I got no replies. So I wanted to see for myself and I picked Briley as one aftermarket choke to compare with.

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see any particular performance problem with my Browning DS chokes. I just wanted to see for myself with my load, my gun and my chokes.
Kudos to you for putting in the work to figure it out. I will throw this in and it is based off of what I have read on here, I haven't taken the time to do all of the work you are putting in to test my DS chokes. I only have one gun that has them, it is a 20 ga 725 that I just shoot for fun so I haven't patterned it like I have my trap guns with Invector and Invector Plus chokes. The complaint I have heard with the factory DS chokes is the constrictions are all over the place. The actual constriction doesn't match the letter designation on the tube. This is why many are saying to measure the tubes you are testing. I think if the factory tube actually measures out at a full then it will perform as well as any aftermarket tube. The issue is many receive a factory tube marked full and it actually measures out at a modified or even more open.
 
What this is going to come down to, as always is, shoot a fixed Full/IM/ Mod. choke for everything that the barrel came with. Save yourself the time and money to do this crazy testing that will only mess with your brain to the point that you will need to lay on a couch, and tell someone about your psychological disorder to gain one more bird. Choke tubes from a different manufacture than the gun is a marketing ploy that has stolen many dollars from the psychologically deranged trapshooters that do only one thing, make you concentrate harder on the bird simply because of the confidence a change gives you. Many different things can be done for much cheaper, and less hassle, like wearing the same underwear that you shot good in last time.:p
 
Discussion starter · #31 ·
Actual words used to bash Browning brand DS chokes from the thread on July 27
"The 725 factory chokes do NOT perform!! I have had many students find this out the hard way. "
I asked how they don't perform and got no answer. Here is some actual data. Can you tell me in what way they arrn't performing?

"the factory chokes are good paper weights"

"Junk! Please do yourself a favor and give them to someone that you don’t like!"

"I highly recommend replacing the factory DS chokes with good aftermarket chokes (Carlson's, Briley, Comp-N-Choke, etc.) "

Nothing specific about what is wrong with them. This thread has at least some actual data. I am coming into this with a completely open mind. For the peopl who think there is something wrong with the browning chokes, please be specific. OK, I get that many have said the constrictions don't match what people expect for a certain type (F, LF, IM, M etc). I posted some preliminary measurements and some things are apparent.
Browning F is 5mil tighter than Briley F and my data shows browning has , on average a smaller 75% circle. So no big surprise there.
Browning LF is 2mil more open than Briley LF yet, at with with my shots, the Browning makes a tighter pattern with less shot to shot variability.
Just calling it like I see it. Not a particular proponent of Browning but I had to know if something was actually wrong with my factory chokes.

Better bore measurements in a few days.
 
I think the factory Browning chokes perform just as good as a choke from any other manufacturer of the same diameter. But as you can see, many of the chokes that came with my Brownings are constricted less than the designation would suggest. That pisses people off. It makes people wonder if the old saying "our chokes don't have specified diameters, they have specified patterns" is pure BS meant to cover up for inconsistent manufacturing tolerances. They don't want people demanding refunds or exchanges for a IM choke of only .019 constriction, or Mod choke of only .012. With that kind of stuff out there, you can not blame people for preferring Briley chokes that come closer or at the specified diameter. But in the end, the Browning chokes performs as well as any other choke of the same diameter. Measure your chokes and your barrel, if it isn't the constriction you want, buy a choke that is. Simple as that.

Which is what I did - I just ordered a Briley flush fit Invector Plus extra full, which should come in at about a diameter of .702, and if it does, that will give my .738 bore BT-99 a choke of .036 instead of the .029 I currently have with a Browning Invector plus full choke. I won't be using my other Browning chokes as paper weights, I will be keeping them for the day I want a choke of those diameters.
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
I think the factory Browning chokes perform just as good as a choke from any other manufacturer of the same diameter. But as you can see, many of the chokes that came with my Brownings are constricted less than the designation would suggest. That pisses people off. It makes people wonder if the old saying "our chokes don't have specified diameters, they have specified patterns" is pure BS meant to cover up for inconsistent manufacturing tolerances. They don't want people demanding refunds or exchanges for a IM choke of only .019 constriction, or Mod choke of only .012. With that kind of stuff out there, you can not blame people for preferring Briley chokes that come closer or at the specified diameter. But in the end, the Browning chokes performs as well as any other choke of the same diameter. Measure your chokes and your barrel, if it isn't the constriction you want, buy a choke that is. Simple as that.

Which is what I did - I just ordered a Briley flush fit Invector Plus extra full, which should come in at about a diameter of .702, and if it does, that will give my .738 bore BT-99 a choke of .036 instead of the .029 I currently have with a Browning Invector plus full choke. I won't be using my other Browning chokes as paper weights, I will be keeping them for the day I want a choke of those diameters.
I understand and what you are saying makes a lot of sense. More sense for sure than those other statements I quoted that lack any sort of "physics" as I like to say.
 
Discussion starter · #34 ·
I tried to put together a table of actual choke bores to see how the different companies label different constrictions. NA means that company doesn't make that label. From a bore perspective, Browning does seem like the odd ball because they are tighter than the others at F but looser for LF or IM. With the non-Browning companies, the only types they all agree on is IM at 715 and EF at 700. I guess some of you knew all this but I didn't see it all in ne place elsewhere. Briley's line is nice and simple with product for every label and simple 5mil steps in between. This is why I choose Briley to compare with my Brownings. I have not actually tested my IM chokes yet but will when I can. I guess the argument here is that I'd need to get a Briley EF to compare with a Browning F but I am still concerned that, at least in my tests so far, the Briley's seemed less consistent shot to shot than my Brownings. If I got any of these number wrong, let me know so I can fix them.
Choke tube ID (mils) by brand for Invector DS
BrowningBrileyTru LockCarlsonComp N Choke
IM723715715715715
LF712710NANA710
F700705710710705
EFNA700700700NA
 
I like the work you did a lot. And I am convinced that the minor niggles or refinements that could have been done on the test wouldn't possibly change the main point, which is that there is no relevant difference between the Browning and Briley chokes for the uses to which most shooters put them. For those wanting a very specific bore diameter, the choice of choke might be relevant to fine tune this. However, it is still very likely that for most purposes the differences between Browning and Briley IV+ chokes in the same labeled degree of constriction are not really significant (in terms of actual shooting, not simply in statistical significance, which can be irrelevant for a particular application).
 
No constriction numbers- no credibility.
Exactly.

Like the original poster, I shoot a TrapMax that I bought about 3 years ago, which included the standard set of Browning chokes. Using a bore gauge, the "Modified" choke, which should have been .020 constriction was .008. The "Full" choke was .020.

I sold the set on eBay and bought a set of Briley choke tubes. Their .020 "Modified" measured .020 on the bore gauge, etc., etc., etc.
 
What this is going to come down to, as always is, shoot a fixed Full/IM/ Mod. choke for everything that the barrel came with. Save yourself the time and money to do this crazy testing that will only mess with your brain to the point that you will need to lay on a couch, and tell someone about your psychological disorder to gain one more bird. Choke tubes from a different manufacture than the gun is a marketing ploy that has stolen many dollars from the psychologically deranged trapshooters that do only one thing, make you concentrate harder on the bird simply because of the confidence a change gives you. Many different things can be done for much cheaper, and less hassle, like wearing the same underwear that you shot good in last time.:p
I was not saying those aftermarket chokes are not good. Just saying why pay extra for something that is not proven to be better than the original chokes that came with the barrel. The only chokes I would say would be better is if the barrel is tuned (Wilkinson) to the custom chokes. That way you at least know the patterns are good, or better. The constrictions, or numbers don't mean anything really, besides being an indicator of a tighter pattern. Does not mean that every choke performs to that constriction difference in numbers. Brownings constrictions have pretty much always been a little more open, compared to other choke constrictions. It is the patterns, and performance that matters most with all chokes.
 
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