[visible chip]

You can think anything you want to regardless that it is wrong. First, you, like so many others, are conflating the conditioned reflex of recoil and noise with trigger freeze. This is wrong, so stop it.

If you think vision issues cause trigger freeze, which is a dystonia as set forth in Drew's posts above, then you really need to explain how changing the mechanic of firing the gun, fix your vision problem. Do that in a rational manner and my ignorant self will be impressed because no one has yet.

A quick run down of your medical training and research in this area would be helpful in assessing your authority in this matter.

 

[entropy]

I think a flinch is an unconscious reaction to recoil. people that say that recoil does not bother them are full of it, it bothers everyone and is cumulative. poor gun fit contributes to this. After 1000's of rounds, and being hit in the face by recoil, the connection between your trigger finger pulling backwards and being hit in the face or shoulder is made and the brain says NOPE! the reason a release works is because it is a different movement of the trigger finger.

Psychology was my minor, but I do remember that conditioning does not take that many cause/effect cycles for aversion training. Thus, since recoil is not canceled by a release trigger, we can conclude that:

1. If recoil was indeed the major cause of flinching, it would show up much sooner, as it does when a person who has never fired a pistol before fires a S&W .500 Magnum. (And even many seasoned pistoleros!)

2. It would come back just as fast, if not faster, after switching to a release trigger.


I believe some of the positive effect of a release trigger is in the smoother act of firing, though some of the better pull triggers can be incredibly smooth also.

 

[JBrooks]

Rem Nut: does recoil go away with a release?

Drew, the problem is that people post without reading the thread and, consequently, they never learn anything.

 

[ganger]

JBrooks, do you sell release triggers? What few times I have ever flinched, it' s because I lost track of the bird, almost always on a hard left. How is a release trigger going to fix that?

 

[dennisgmc2]

You been asleep? Jerry is a famous competition pistol shooter. He knows his stuff!

Agreed !

 

[dennisgmc2]

I also don't give a crap that he is a good shooter even if he is Annie Oakley reincarnated. That does not make him a nuero-specialist. Vision has nothing to do with trigger freeze.

Now, as soon as someone can explain how release triggers magically solve a vision processing problem, I'll listen. Until then, it's just people's butts talkin'.

Show a little more class

 

[clwdutch]

I also don't give a crap that he is a good shooter even if he is Annie Oakley reincarnated. That does not make him a nuero-specialist. Vision has nothing to do with trigger freeze.

Now, as soon as someone can explain how release triggers magically solve a vision processing problem, I'll listen. Until then, it's just people's butts talkin'.

Difficult to argue with the release trigger not being affected by vision.. if one motor skill is affected then why isn't another? No need to argue much about it just reasonable application of thought

 

[clwdutch]

Let's argue Jerry's opinion but, don't try it because he may be right. People don't reach his level by blowing smoke.

The problem is everybody is different.. their neurological systems and ability to process identical information are therefor different... I think all of us understand that we trapshooters are round pegs standing on a square concrete pads 😄😄😄😄

 

[Jim Skeel]

For clarification -- when we talk about flinching, does that mean you are taking your finger off the trigger after calling pull, at some point? I'm fairly new at trap shooting and have a coach who seems pretty knowledgeable (he's shot registered 100's). He said that he sees me take my finger almost completely off the trigger and then put it back on while moving the gun. He said that that delay from not having my finger on the trigger the entire time is causing me to shoot over the target. Is this issue the exact same thing as flinching, or something else? If it's something else, does it have a name?

He told me to practice taking the slack out of the trigger as I mount and continuing to focus on not letting that slack out. This seems to work when I execute it, but I get anxious that I could accidentally discharge into the back of the trap house when I'm at my hold points before I call pull, or as I call pull. Any advice on this?

When I am practicing by myself and am able to 100% focus on not disconnecting from the trigger I usually miss 3 birds or less per game in singles and shoot 19-21 25y handicap. When this creeps in and unravels I can shoot a 17 in singles and as bad as a 15 or 14 handicap.

The anxiety/interference with doing this fix especially comes up during league when there are tons of people around and I'm super concerned about not accidentally shooting the back of the house. I have no issue with disconnecting when shooting skeet/sporting clays that I'm aware of. Any advice/insight?

Good shotguns do not have 'slack' in the trigger.

 

[Matthew]

A point to ponder. A gentleman was an accomplished skeet shooter. He had a major stroke. He recovered but was no longer able to shoot skeet. He couldn’t pull the trigger. He switched to trap with a release trigger and was able to finish his shooting career as an accomplished trap shooter. In fact, even with a release trigger he had an exaggerated swing trying to release the trigger. Anybody care to weigh in on that? I have no clue.

 

[KS-5 Spec.]

KS-5

Embouchure dystonia is a focal task-specific dystonia that affects the muscles (esp. lips and jaw muscles) used to play wind instruments. The musician is looking at the sheet music, or playing by memory.

Musician's focal dystonia is a task-specific disorder that mainly affects the upper extremity (especially the hands) esp. of violin and guitar players. The musician is looking at the sheet music, or playing by memory.

"Dartitis" affects the hands muscles (inability to release the dart), and the player is looking at a non-moving target.

Pitchers with throwing "yips" have an inability to release the ball, while looking at the catcher's glove.

How is visual processing involved?

When we remember things, what do we do. Do we use visual reference in the memory recall. At the same time when we are in thought, what happens to our visual processing. Even though our eyes are open, what do we see. When we listen to a conversation, or listen intently for a sound or noise what do we see. Our hearing is now central processing. At the same time our eyes are open, but we don't register what we are looking at. When we go into a deep tired stare, what happens to our senses processing. Our eyes are open, and basically the brain stops processing our senses all together until a noise, movement, or touch sensation occurs, and we snap out of it.

The yips I believe are the same thing. Thought, doubt, confidence in succeeding at what we set out to do gets in the way of visual concentration. Which is basically lack of visual processing on the target. The key here are these lines, "while looking at the catcher's glove", "and the player is looking at a non-moving target". The eyes may be facing that direction, but at the same time the visual processing can be cut off. When that target disappears at the split second of release, like in pulling a trigger on a moving target, the motor skill signals get sent of into la la land.

When we first learn an instrument, do we use visual reference to make sure our fingers are in the right place to play a note or chord. Once that is repeated many times it can be a memory thing, but is there still visual reference going on with that memory recall.

On the instrument thing, think about that in the shooting sports world of moving targets. Or any sport involved with moving targets. If our hands can move to where they have to be without looking at them, then isn't looking at the target with full central or conscious processing absolutely critical to hit a moving target. Let the eyes feed as much information as possible, and the body can do what it has to do, and when.

Let that super computer in our skull figure it out.

One more thing about our vision, in order for our eyes to see a stationary image, they have to move the central focus very quickly to another focus point in order to see that image. Otherwise it will slowly disappear. Also, if there is movement involved with our central focus such as on a moving target our eyes will stay focused without diminishing because the background will appear to be moving..

Next time when you have a conversation with someone close to you, watch their eyes closely when you are speaking. They zing back and forth a very short amount, side to side very rapidly while listening to you talk. I wonder why.

 

[entropy]

One more thing about our vision, in order for our eyes to see a stationary image, they have to move the central focus very quickly to another focus point in order to see that image. Otherwise it will slowly disappear. Also, if there is movement involved with our central focus such as on a moving target our eyes will stay focused without diminishing because the background will appear to be moving..

Actually, tracking a moving object (proprioception) involves two different processes. Saccades is used to acquire the object at first (involves mostly the rods, which detect motion, and light in darkness) and is a series of quick, jerky eye movements towards (and sometimes passing) the object, at which point smooth pursuit takes over, and the object is tracked with the macular, then foveal, vision for sharpest detail. This process takes roughly half a second. The subconcious can track more than one object, but unless you're Marty Feldman, the eyes can't. We rely on the ability to track more than one object in doubles, flushing a covey, or engaging more than one plane in a dogfight. The more one practices, the more proficient one becomes. That's why they have the Top Gun pilot school.

 

[KS-5 Spec.]

Actually, tracking a moving object (proprioception) involves two different processes. Saccades is used to acquire the object at first (involves mostly the rods, which detect motion, and light in darkness) and is a series of quick, jerky eye movements towards (and sometimes passing) the object, at which point smooth pursuit takes over, and the object is tracked with the macular, then foveal, vision for sharpest detail. This process takes roughly half a second. The subconcious can track more than one object, but unless you're Marty Feldman, the eyes can't. We rely on the ability to track more than one object in doubles, flushing a covey, or engaging more than one plane in a dogfight. The more one practices, the more proficient one becomes. That's why they have the Top Gun pilot school.

It seems that our visual processing can't do both peripheral vision (Rods) and central clear focus (cones) at once. When we concentrate on one or the other, it seems the opposite goes away, or into sub conscious mode.

When looking at a stationary object, then concentrate peripheral vision to the side on another object, it seems that original central focus object disappears, even though our eyes are still centered on that object.

It is like the conscious processing has to be one or the other.

 

[hbar314]

The two sides seem to be, recoil induced or visual problem.
I flinch shooting all disciplines of flying targets and now shoot a release/pull trigger.
I have NEVER flinched hunting and only use pull triggers while hunting.
What happens to the recoil or visual problems when I'm hunting?

Also mechanics and hearing are the next two sides.

Rollin Oswald makes a good point in his Stock Fitters Bible that using the thicker part of the pad on the finger, or even into the second pad can cause flinching because it changes the timing of when you think you are pulling the trigger to when you actually get the bang. Very similar to what happens with a perazzi hammer spring starts to weaken and changes timing and induces a flinch.

I've seen shooters that have to have ear muffs on top of their ear plugs so they don't flinch as well.


Those topics said. Are you hunting with the same gun you shoot clays with? Would seem unfair to compare apples to oranges if the setups are dramatically different (or there's an issue in the clays gun that's not in the hunting gun).

 

[Jusanothajoe]

I think the fact that you start with a low unmounted gun helps. Your eyes are able to lock on the target before the barrel gets near the target. I shoot skeet and sporting clays calling for the bird with the gun off my shoulder and do not flinch.

I shoot Helice, I don't know where the target is coming from or where it is going, I flinch just as bad shooting it low gun as pre-mounted.

 

[Jusanothajoe]

Because when hunting you don't set up, mount, then call for a target and expect it to appear on demand, then get the same size and speed target as you were expecting?

See my answer to Jeff348.

 

[Boss458357]

I could understand how not having an idea were a bird or target is going might make you flinch .
It leaves you 2 options don' t shoot or snap shoot if you have hunted grouse with out a dog
you will understand this and many flinch when they take flight often you will have a very short window to shoot.
As far as gun down most flinch less. A release trigger helps many, but I know shooters that flinch more with a release.
I think there are many types of flinches and we tend to lump them together.

 

[entropy]

It seems that our visual processing can't do both peripheral vision (Rods) and central clear focus (cones) at once. When we concentrate on one or the other, it seems the opposite goes away, or into sub conscious mode.

When looking at a stationary object, then concentrate peripheral vision to the side on another object, it seems that original central focus object disappears, even though our eyes are still centered on that object.

It is like the conscious processing has to be one or the other.

Yes, it's because when you start "looking at" an object you noticed in the peripheral, by definition, you are no longer using the peripheral vision to track it. The conscious can control where the macular/foveal vision is "pointed at", but then it is possible for it to misinterpret the data it receives, which is where yips can come from.

There's a reason the term "thousand yard stare" is in the lexicon. Soldiers learned quickly to look out as far as they could see, and to move the eyes laterally every few seconds, when told to "scan your sector". It's because the eyes will catch any movement closer in from the farther distance they are scanning, and because of the way the crystalline lenses in the eye focus, can focus inwards much faster (milliseconds, but in the OODA loop, milliseconds matter), though they do slow with age.

Tracking of more than one target consciously can only be done within the macular vision, a cone of about 15 degrees around the fovea, the area of the most clarity about 6 degrees around the retinal center. The brain will make an unconscious decision which to follow if they diverge, unless a conscious decision is made before that point. A covey breaking is an apt demonstration of this. If you don't consciously pick which bird to follow and start swinging the gun towards, the brain just might do it for you, or for an inexperienced hunter, fight or flight might kick in and they will just freeze in place. I know that happened the first time I kick up more than one grouse. By the (only) time I kicked up a covey of Quail, I had hunted enough that I threw that gun up to my shoulder and started firing at the straightaway bird, not stopping to think I was carrying am M16A1, and it was loaded with blanks anyway.

 

[hbar314]

I know this thread was about flinching but I dug through some scientific and medical journals and found one example of trigger freeze: