Don't think for a minute, using something other than lead or steel in a firearm reduces the use of lethal force. All firearms are lethal weapons. Even shotguns loaded with bean bags are "less lethal" meaning they can still kill, maybe just not as often or as for sure as will a slug or buckshot. Less lethal weapons are not aimed at the head or the heart. If you are reduced to the option of using a firearm, be prepared to having to kill or using it will cause you to kill even if not intended.

 

You are lucky you chose not to shoot...you would be in jail for a long time. Your life was not threatened and you live in NY. Good luck with that.

Totally agree with Rick. I would never use LTL loads, I want the perp that came into my hose dead. Period. I don't want to take the chance the guy wakes up and kills a family member while having my back turned while waiting for the police to show up.

You surely have seen or heard about how many time a guy hopped up on drugs has to be shot before he goes down.

 

Weapons that consistently and reliably stop the type of violence that places you in FEAR FOR YOUR LIFE OR FEAR OF GRAVE, CRIPPLING INJURY, do themselves have a high probability of KILLING or CRIPPLING the opponent.

NEVER reduce the effectiveness of a defensive arm by using less-than-lethal ammunition.

When you have to shoot to live, it is NOT Airsoft.

 

If you have to protect yourself, family, and home, less than lethal ammo is NOT and option. If they have real ammo you're dead plain and simple.

BTW good luck fighting in court when that asshole you shot is sueing you because you maimed him or crippled him with a beanbag. Trust me it happens. Buy factory made home defense rounds and you have much less to worry about.

 

You shoot someone because you believe that they pose an imminent threat to your life or someone else's life.

Use of a "less than lethal" load by someone would indicate to me that they didn't feel particularly threatened by the person they shot.

They certainly wouldn't have been trying to stop them, just annoy them. Or, perhaps, detain them.

Think about it, if you knew your life was truly on the line, would you choose a bean bag round, or 00 buck? Real 00 buck, not rubber.

If you answer "bean bag round" please sell your firearms. You have no business owning one. That sounds harsh, but I'm serious. You haven't thought about what it means to own a firearm and use it for self defense.

Leave the less than lethal stuff for police riot control.

If you employ a firearm, do so to stop the threat, not just annoy it.


Have you had any classes on the use of force? Anything, even a concealed carry class?

I ask because it sounds to me like you don't understand when and where you can employ lethal force.

If you don't want to run the risk of killing someone in self defense, don't pick up a firearm. It's that simple.


In the case that you described I completely agree with the police. You had no idea what was going on. For all you know that woman could have just stabbed that guy and that's why he was "pounding the shit out of" her.

You should have called the police and let them handle it.

The last thing you should have done was grab a shotgun with rubber buckshot in it and point it at someone.

 

You shoot someone because you believe that they pose an imminent threat to your life or someone else's life.

Use of a "less than lethal" load by someone would indicate to me that they didn't feel particularly threatened by the person they shot.

They certainly wouldn't have been trying to stop them, just annoy them. Or, perhaps, detain them.

Think about it, if you knew your life was truly on the line, would you choose a bean bag round, or 00 buck? Real 00 buck, not rubber.

If you answer "bean bag round" please sell your firearms. You have no business owning one. That sounds harsh, but I'm serious. You haven't thought about what it means to own a firearm and use it for self defense.

Leave the less than lethal stuff for police riot control.

If you employ a firearm, do so to stop the threat, not just annoy it.


Have you had any classes on the use of force? Anything, even a concealed carry class?

I ask because it sounds to me like you don't understand when and where you can employ lethal force.

If you don't want to run the risk of killing someone in self defense, don't pick up a firearm. It's that simple.


In the case that you described I completely agree with the police. You had no idea what was going on. For all you know that woman could have just stabbed that guy and that's why he was "pounding the shit out of" her.

You should have called the police and let them handle it.

The last thing you should have done was grab a shotgun with rubber buckshot in it and point it at someone.

Thank you for the reply I never gave it much thought until you pointed out a few of the issues. I may have to take a few of the classes you mentioned.

 

I'm an ex cop. Stick with the OO buckshot.

 

You don't break up a fight on your lawn. To many people on drugs or with other issues. If on drugs you almost certainly would end up putting yourself in a position where you would have to shoot (and a rubber bullet would be useless) or be injured yourself. Call the police.

As a gun (ammo) in the home for self defense.....

From your favorite chair to the nearest entrance is how many feet?

From your bed to the entrance to the bedroom door is how many feet?

A door kicked in or forced and how many seconds to react, especially from the door to where your sitting/sleeping?

The only way to know for sure is to practice the various situations you can run into in the home and decide if a shotgun or a handgun is the way to go (with lethal rounds).

If using a shotgun inside seven / eight yards not much of a pattern.

 

If you have to shoot, a wounded/crippled SOB , WILL sue and WIN. Dead is permanent.
If, if, if you are not preparred for the worst, get ready for it.
A smooth and small gun is better to have taken away from you, and jamed up your posterior, if you don't use it.
Just some thoughts on self defense. 2nd place sucks..........merlyn

 

Seems like everyone is in agreement on this one. Shoot to kill.

 

You could try whipping the suspect with warm spaghetti, but in all seriousness, use the real stuff (guns & ammo).

If for some reason your pseudo ammo didn't work the way you wanted it to and the perp was able to harm even one of your loved ones, you'd never forgive yourself.

Better for him to be hurt than you or a family member to suffer.

Just my opinion.

Hauxfan!

 

Think of the OO buckshot loads as a smoke detector, first aid kit or a fire extinguisher, you have them in case of need but hope you never have to use them. I was a police officer for 11 years and was involved in two fire fights but fortunately for me I was mentally and physically prepared prior to both incidents. Your intent is to stop the threat not to kill but as we all know it happens when firearms are discharged. I would evaluate your living quarters before settling on 00 buck. It penetrates drywall rather easily and you could have unintended collateral damage. Your desire not to kill another human being is to be commended, no one that is mentally sane wants to.

 

I can see everyones point about shooting to kill and I agree with them. My main concern is this I live in a city area and I was just afraid of a stray pellet hitting my neighbors house and then killing one of them. Or worse yet a pellet bouncing off a wall and hitting some one in my house. I am now thinking maybe a load of #4s might be a better choice if I have to use live real ammo.

 

If the bad guy is dead--there is only one story to tell---your lawyer's--keep your mouth shut

Phil Berkowitz

 

I am actually looking into getting a trained security dog. Its pricy I have seen some that are pet quality but will go after anyone who tries to do harm. I live by myself and I am getting older and the underbellys of the neighborhood know my movements. That's one of my reasons for security thinking. I sometimes think I am setting myself for a crime, I should just move and get a different house. Thanks all for the responses.

 

Ditto V10. You don't "shoot to kill." You shoot to stop the threat. Under the given scenario it's risky to get personally involved. If you wanted to screw with someone a little pepper spray goes a long way just be prepared to get some on you. It doesn't matter what you do or don't do you are subject to criminal or civil action. Don't forget the risk of personal injury or death.

 

Good post goony, and V10.

It is one thing to talk tough, but in reality afterwards, I think it will get in your mind eventually if you choose to kill someone even if their actions are the reason. Also, shooting someone outside the home, you are going to have to answer a lot of questions, and the answers have to be just right. In the case mentioned in the original post, I am not sure there would be any satisfactory answers that would have kept you out of jail.

Seeing as we are talking about inside the home also, the distances are not going to be that far. I don't care how drugged up someone is, or not, you get hit with a shotgun blast, I don't care if it is bubble gum, the perps first thought is going to be it is lead. The next thought is going to be getting the hell out if they still can, with their ears a ringing. Whether it is plastic, rubber, or bubble gum in his hide, he will have to at some point visit a doctor to get them out.

How about the first shot is the non-lethal which at that short of distance may be, and the second is the lead if need be.

The mentality of killing the threat as the first priority is going to get you in trouble, especially if it is based on perception.

 

Many years ago when I worked in a gun shop in the UK, we had a lady bring in some guns to sell after her husbands death. They had lived in Africa for over 40 years and she had a very interesting home defence firearm to sell. The gun was a 12 gauge Cogswell and Harrison SxS that had been custom built for her husband. The barrel was about 12 or 14 inches long and the gun had a custom pistol grip with a matching forend. [no stock]The lady said they slept with it under their bed all the years they lived in Africa and it was loaded with SPSG Buckshot. Her husband only shot it a few times for practice over those 40 years. My boss at the time purchased it from her for scrap value as it was a prohibited firearm. We took it out to where we sometimes took customers to try out guns and my boss loaded the gun with 1 1/4 oz's of buckshot and fired both barrels from about 10 feet at a 5 gallon oil drum. I have thought about it many times over the years, I have never seen anything blown apart like that barrel. Stick with the Buckshot!! As a note I think the action on that gun was sold back to Cogwell to be rebuilt into a normal SxS as it had only been fired a few dozen times since new.
Devonian.

 

As a retired firearms/chemical agent instructor; I agree with the respondents who disagreed with the term "shoot to kill". You must "stop the threat" and no more. Otherwise it could be construed as excessive force. Now, for example if you shoot at a person that invades your home and hit him in the face which would of course cause death in most cases; you have indeed stopped the threat. Just remember if you shoot someone you need to have your responses to questions to be justified. (and believe me there will be a ton of questions). Your report must always show that you or others were in danger of great bodily harm or death; which allowed you to use deadly force. Practice your response techniques if something like this would happen. (It is called crisis rehearsal). If at all possible; if you can vacate the house, (along with everyone in the house); get the hell out and run to the neighbors or wherever and call the cops. In this day and age, you must be very careful and must be able to justify your actions; especially if deadly force is used. JMHO. Ed