hug your pattern board

 

I don't think anyone will have valid data about this (despite claims to the contrary) unless they have intentionally loaded a good number of shells with sloppy crimps of various types and compared them head to head to the same loads with perfect crimps. And even then there are enough other variables to make any test results inconclusive. One shell with a sloppy crimp shot during a patterning session isn't a valid sample.

MK

 

The resistance provided by the crimp should have an affect on chamber pressure and velocity. Old worn out shells will result in slightly lower velocities but this does not show up until the shell has been reloaded 7-8 times.

I did one time pattern 4 shells that had irregular, folded crimps. I could not tell any difference in pattern percentages between these 4 irregular crimped shells and 4 shells with nice looking crimps. The problem could have been the small number of shells I had available to test. I would never try to form a conclusion from less than 10 patterns. The patterns are just too variable.

I can tell you, with great confidence, that if you look at a shell with an irregular crimp and you believe the shell is not very good and will probably not break the target, you will often be correct. You can miss targets with both your mind and your gun.

Pat Ireland

Pat Ireland

 

When I reload I usually reload about 500 shells. As I box these reloads, I cull any crimp that is not correct. I shoot the culled shells in practice, often mixing 1 oz and 1 1/8 oz loads. The 1 oz loads have size 8 shot and the 1 1/8 oz loads have size 7 1/2 shot.

I am amazed at how these rejects will often shoot 25's.

I started culling the poor crimps because I missed targets because I was mentally distracted by loading a poor crimp during a registered shoot.

IMO, any crimp that is significantly out of order needs to be cut open and examined. You may have an unsafe reload due to too much or too little powder or other problems.

I have used a MEC Grabber for over 20 years and before that a MEC SizeMaster for 10 years. I upgraded to a MEC 9000 G this summer.

With the MEC 9000 G, I started experiencing unusual crimps. These were both too high or indented. What I found was that when I brought the press down with no shell in the priming station and a primer in the press, the primer would get picked up by the powder drop tube and stay there.

I started seeing powder continue to drop from the tube after I moved on to another shell and the reloads dropping out of the last station looked funny. This was with Nobel primers. When I cut the shells open, most had too little powder and I think one had too much. The primer in the drop tube was IMO the cause of the problem.

This was with my first 100 or so reloads. I have since reloaded about 2000 shells with no problems.

I really like the MEC 9000 G but it does have its quirks. You really need to watch what is going on while you are reloading. I think I need need to slightly enlarge the business end of the primer drop tube with a Dremmel tool. I plan to ask MEC about this before I make any change.

Also, with a MEC, be careful not to over tighten the powder and shot bottles and watch the movement of the charge bar with each reload.


Ed Ward

 

Don Zutz did crimp tests years ago in Handloader Magazine. Issues 51, 52 and 59. And others issues. He proved the crimp can make a big differance. He also had articals in Trap and Field about crimp but I don't know the issues.

 

What Pat said.

I found the old AA hull to become inconsistent after 4/5 loads, and at the time the Remington Premier was good to 10 or more.

It was easy to tell, the minute the crimp lost its nice flat appearance my 1200 FPS shell would be anywhere from 1135 to 1175 but never 1200.

At that point the practice tub began to overflow.

I never found ugly to affect velocity, a misfolded crimp seemed to have as much resistance as a normal looking one.

And since the shot cup holds the pellets till exiting the barrel, I will say pattern deficiencies would not be logical.

I could be wrong. I got 98 on a test once.

HM

 

Ed: You may resent hearing this from a "school principal" [retired], but it may be time to move into a better quality reloader. Most of us go through a transition stage of Mecs, Pacific Hornaday's [360], into P/W's and then the Spolar with hydraulics. At each stage, you will say to to yourself, "Wow, what a better machine." More important than the crimp is that the wad is not cocked in the shell. Some of the old timers use to take a piece of masking tape over the end of the shell and shoot it for practice... the target broke. Fred

 

OK guys and gals, riddle me this: At what point do you retire your cases? I use AA's and I rarely get more than 5 reloads. On the third reloading, I usually find one, maybe two cases where the split at the fold extends all the way to the top and separates. At that point, I just replace the individual case and continue. However, after the fifth reloading, I usually find splits reaching the top now becoming a pattern, so I chuck the lot and start with new (once-fired) cases.

I used a Lee Load-All for 25 years, but I now use a Sizemaster and the crimps are about the same.

I've seen claims of 10 and in one case, 20 reloadings of AA cases! Are these guys doing something different, or do you think they're just using worn out cases to the point of falling apart?

 

Charles, I don't keep accurate tabs on the number of loadings but I take a look at the hulls as I'm about to put them into the loader and make a decision about trashing them. Splits in the crimp section or darkened brittle plastic are reason to trash them. I usually load Remington STS or GC and am guessing the reload life is between 6 and 10 but certainly not 20. Pehaps I could get another loading or two from my culled hulls but why? Even if there isn't a performance issue, you just don't want scruffy looking ammo. It has to do with those mind tricks that Pat was talking about.

 

When I started loading, I would mark the cases to count the number of time it had been reloaded, but most of the time I ran out of room to mark, before I found the shell non-serviceable, so I don't bother any more, just check and load or "chuck" them. Mostly AA's.
Norman

 

Adjust your reloading machine so you get nice crimps. HMB

 

HMB,

I'm not sure I need to. The crimps are nice and flat with no opening and the rim is tapered for good feeding. I had no adjustment on the Load-All, but the Sizemaster seems to already be adjusted correctly.

 

Straight99 - Yes, Don Zuts did write several articles describing his testing that showed poor crimps resulted in poor patterns. But, these tests could never be duplicated by anyone else. I suspect Mr. Zuts (a pen name) did much more writing than testing shotgun shells.

Pat Ireland

 

Charles, I discard hulls when I start to see soot circles around my firing pins indicating that the primer seal has started to leak. For AA hulls that comes after the 3rd or 4th reload (unless they split first) and for Remingtons it usually happens at the 6th or 7th. There is still life left in the crimps but i don't need trash in my action.

MK

 

I knew Don Zutz for 30 years and helped him with some of his tests so I know they were spot on. Counted more pellet holes than I care to remember. He verified most of his tests with Hodgdons powder company. He was the Wisconsin State champ in skeet for several years. If he said it worked, it worked.

 

Poor crimps will cause you miss targets if you worry about them!

If you ignore bad crimps...they will break targets just fine!

 

Straight99- Your insight is different from mine. I remember Neil W. making comments similar to the one I made above. I duplicated one of his reported tests and got directly opposite results than he did. I spoke to him about this but he was too busy to talk with me at that time. Do you remember his real name? I was under the impression he wrote under a pen name.

Pat Ireland

 

His real name was Don Zutz but sometime when he wrote an artical on rifles he would use the pen name Don Roberts.

 

I have run several straights with culled shells because I didn't like the crimp. I reload sts and nitro hulls untill the ends start to split then I load one last time and toss.

 

rdf59, about 4 years ago I was patterning a lot of different factory ammo. I didn't want to "waste" any by cutting them open to count the pellets. So I pried the crimp open with a small screwdriver and the handle of a teaspoon. It boogered the edges of plastic some, but didn't tear it. After I counted the pellets, I poured them back in and recrimped using my press. The recrimps looked factory, but the folds were a little messy.

There was no difference in patterns between the shells I opened and reclosed and the factory fresh shells (outside of normal pattern variation).

 

Pat, I met and somewhat knew Don. He did go by Don Zutz and once at the Grand showed me his skeet association card with that name on it. Now Neil knows that Iam a big Don fan of the past but I will say that I do not notice crimps making a dramatic difference in target breaking ability or patterning from my tests. But then thats me and Iam always different with always different outcomes than the norm....

 

NEVER NEVER LOOK AT THE CRIMP BEFORE YOU SHOOT.
THEY ALL SHOOT THE SAME IF YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY LOOK LIKE.
THOSE WHO LOOK OFTEN DOUBT . THOSE WHO DOUBT MISS