For me the higher POI becomes an issue with crossing targets more often because of the compound lead

 

Just say your gun for both shoot 50/50. If you were to float the bird on trap by much at all it would not be a very hard it if not a miss . As the pattern would be nearing 40/60. Since on the patterning board is stationary. And you Center your head on the board. If you shoot at a trap bird before it has crested it is moving in an upward climb. So unless you cover the bird , you may miss or just chips.
On a level or falling bird being below the bird, being able to see it let's you break the birds.
Its similar to shooting Oakley's, if you are the third shooter and bird is falling, you are going to need to be under the bird some bit .

 

I think the difference is not all sporting targets are falling. Some are rising, some falling, crossing etc. So a flat shooting gun is the best all around option. If all the targets were falling a low shooting gun would probably be best. Usually in trap all targets are rising so a high shooting gun has your lead built in.

 

Because most people miss Sporting clay's targets over or behind. Target setters know where shooters want to break the target and at that very spot move the target a different direction . Most Trap shooters haven't got any idea what the target is doing because they don't see anything like that in the game of trap. Where high POI guns get shooters is high to low driven bird or crossing targets that change or transition line of flight. Most sporting guys like 50/50 or 60/40 for a good reason.

 

I shoot A LOT of sporting clays and wobble trap (and I'll shoot any other clay target sport too).

I shoot everything with 1 gun and I have the POI set approximately 55/45 or just a shade higher than 50/50.

If you try a POI like a lot of trap shooters use, say 80/20, you will shoot over a ton of sporting clays targets.

IMO, it's much easier to hit a target that is rising with a flat-shooting gun than to hit a falling target with a high-shooting gun, but each person has to find out what works for them.

I have.

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

 

I shoot all target disciplines with the same gun set to 60/40 POI. I tried higher POI but quickly found that I am completely disconnected from the target while shooting crossers, chandelles and almost all targets on the drop. Dead flat 50/50 POI didn't work either - I kept lifting my head to see targets better. But... like Claypoppy said, every shooter needs to try different setups to find what works for him or her.

 

Float or cover the target?
You make the choice on the approach.
Then adjust your POI accordingly.

I like to cover with a 50/50 pattern.
(The 50/50 is more forgiving on dropping targets than a high POI. You will experience more droppers in SC.) Therefore I have a flat shooting O/U.

Though it takes a significant amount of target experience to trust ones self, to feel comfortable with the various types of target presentations using the cover the target method. (IMHO).

You must pay your dues.

 

Float or cover the target?

I"ll disagree with this statement. You never cover the target!!!!! You touch the bottom of the target with your barrel, but you should never cover it. Your mind needs to focus on the target and never lose sight of it. This works with perfectly with the vast majority of shooters that shoot clay targets. Its not natural to hold your barrel a given distance under every bird you shoot. It can be a learned trait that takes a year, or even years to learn though! This style of shooting only works on die hard trap shooters. Once this trait is learned. It will make shooting skeet or sporting clay's extremely difficult for this shooter. Even Leo shot a standard 60/40 POI barrel from what I've read on here. This is why most every shotgun maker makes target shotguns that have a 60/40 POI. Its been the norm for Krieghoff for almost 60 years. Remington's model 32 was doing the same for decades before that. If you want a higher POI shotgun? be my guest. Its not for everyone. Heck, it is not even for the majority of shooters. Its only for a select few die hard trap shooters who only shoot trap. If I had to pick the best Trap shooter of all time? My vote would go to Leo. Remember the ole adage? Beware of the shooter who only shoots one gun!!! Now pick your POI and go for it. break em all Jeff

 

Everyone's target perception is different. I shoot what you might call an 80/20 gun on sporting and 120/0 gun on trap. Falling targets aren't a problem. Everyone has to develop their own target pictures based on what they see and how they shoot.

 

I use one shotgun to shoot Trap, Skeet, Sporting Clays and 5-Stand. For a while I was raising my comb about 1/8" when I shot Trap and lowering it back down 1/8" to shoot Skeet, Sporting Clays and 5-Stand.

At a Sporting Clays charity shoot I forgot to lower my comb back down and shot a great score and didn't even realize it until after the shoot was over. Since that day I don't raise and lower my comb anymore.

Quite a few Master Class Sporting Clays Shooters shoot shotguns that shoot high. On the targets that are dropping or going down you just need to get under them a little more.

 

What works for you is what counts ! I'm a live bird shooter as I hunt most anything that flies , I choose a 60/40 impact as it gives me a poa with seeing the birds above the barrel but allows me to
track the the birds line of flight , before pulling away in front ! Matching the speed of the bird/target has helped me to establish the lead (gap) required to kill the bird ! It also tells me a lot about the
amomo I'm using whether it's 1300 fps or 1600 fps loads with live birds or Clay target Games !

 

You don't shoot Annie Oakleys, do you?

 

No, I don't. Just trap and occasional sporting...Jim

 

Try it sometime. You learn how to shoot dropping targets.

 

I'm noticing what you are saying in my own shooting. I shoot more trap than sporting clays because its local, and switching from my high POI 100%/0 trap gun to my sporting gun and sporting clays works to the detriment of my sporting clays game. I just got a new trap gun that shoots 70/30 and am having to unlearn some of the habits I learned with the higher POI gun. I notice I'm pulling the trigger too soon on some fast rising birds now and miss some due to poor follow through - birds my high POI gun would have hit.

It can be a learned trait that takes a year, or even years to learn though! This style of shooting only works on die hard trap shooters. Once this trait is learned. It will make shooting skeet or sporting clay's extremely difficult for this shooter. If you want a higher POI shotgun? be my guest. Its not for everyone. Heck, it is not even for the majority of shooters. Its only for a select few die hard trap shooters who only shoot trap.

 

I'm pulling the trigger too soon on some fast rising birds now and miss some due to poor follow through - birds my high POI gun would have hit.

Stick with it and you'll undo those bad habits. It will take a few months & you'll miss a few more targets, but it'll happen. All you newbie's out there should read this. If daflorc had learned trap with a 60/40 POI and stayed with it. He would not be having trouble trying to adjust his shooting to Sporting Clay's. This holds true for Skeet, or for wild bird hunting as well. Best of Luck on Your Journey! break em all Jeff

 

I have a hard time understanding why people have different POI for different clay target disciplines. Once I know that my shotgun shoots good left to right, I go and have the trap machine set on straight away, shoot and adjust till I get the results I want. Then I go to the pattern board, shoot it at the the desired yardage and measure the distance from the POA to the POI. That is my natural POI. Lester

 

You don't understand it? Let me help you It all starts by inheriting your dads field gun and shooting hand thrown clays with no formal shooting instruction, and you have some success with a list of bad habits that came naturally to you. Then you get the itch and realize there are places around where there are actual clay games - you shoot a little of all the games, and you do OK. Then you read about those clay games and realize that guys have trap guns for trap, and sporting guns for sporting clays and 5 stand, etc., and the reasons you read about in articles and on forums make logical sense.

So you go and buy a "trap" shotgun and you realize its easier to hit with and see the clays than with the field gun. About the same time you pattern the gun and realize your particular trap gun's adjustable rib allows for a 100/0 to a 150/o POI, and after some trial and error you pick one setting and run with it. You do OK, and even improve - satisfaction. Then you take that new trap gun to the 5 stand or sporting clays course where you used to shoot 35/50 with the field gun and you suck terribly on rabbits, dropping targets, just about everything, and decide that you need a flat shooting sporting gun for those games because you sucked so bad with the trap gun, plus everybody online and in articles says thats what you need to do. And instead of just using your field gun, you feel the need to buy a 32" sporting gun with adjustable comb and all the fixin's, because, well, you like buying new guns.

Then, you still suck at sporting clays because you shot so much trap with your high POI gun that you have bad habits from it, and habits leftover from self-training with only googled instructions. Then you go and drop a small fortune on a nice new trap gun that patterns lower because you think it'll be an easier transition to the other sporting games because it forces good habits, like a solid follow through, resolve to sell your tristar TT-15 to one of your buddies, and continue on your way with three guns, because you already own them now and might as well shoot them versus taking a major loss in the midst of an already expensive hobby. I thought this was how everybody does it? LOL

 

Flat isn't always preferred for sporting. My coach, who has made Ladies Team USA in FITASC, says she prefers 100% high. Wendell Cherry has said as you advance you will want 60/40.

 

Wendell is a Oldtime Bird shooter , knows the game of sporting well enough to make a living at it , that's more than anyone can say about trap shooting !
Following the Leaders of National Champ's in sporting (PSCA) shoots will give you a better idea as what's best in gun fit ! Hehee

 

All of my shotguns, including my field gun are set up the same, 70/30. I find it makes it easy to change from gun to gun that way.

 

As I've already said, it doesn't matter what the OTHER guys POI is.

Nobody sees or reacts exactly the same.

It only matters what YOUR guns POI is and you shoot it well!

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

 

The Math with a 70/30 set up if you are 31% off pattern you will miss a target you conceivably would have hit. Look at the pattern size and distance and that can be a big difference , a foot or more at 40 yard dependent on choke, shot, etc (nothing is perfect with scatter guns) That being said, stick with one setting, your brain will take a long time learning the difference between multiple guns for different disciplines but it will figure it out over trigger time.

 

There is no "universal best" POI on sporting or trap. Some people are slow and some are faster, some naturally cover the bird and some naturally float the target.

We've had these discussions over a few cold ones, and everyone claims they bring the bead right up to the bird (when they notice it), but everyone shot a different POI.

 

and some naturally float the target.

I've never talked to anyone who naturally floated a target. It was always a learned trait.

and everyone claims they bring the bead right up to the bird (when they notice it)

Bingo!!! We have a Winner. Its natural to bring the barrel right up to the bird!!! My words---and touch it. Just cover it works fine too. Of course I'd have to lean on covering it would be a learned trait as well. Which is not to say that I don't bring the barrel and cover the bird at times. Sometimes I'm a tad off and shoot right at it. Sometimes I might pull the trigger just a little under it as well. So I have a little leeway as it were both ways. After all we are pointing the shotgun not aiming it, Right?

Alas, we are all different and have to find what works for us. Now go out there and find your favorite POI. break em all Jeff

 

Natural POI....
There was a article written about POI, They surveyed some current All Americans at the time, which they were asked about their POI and what they see when they pulled the trigger.
If I remember right, there POI was all over the place, from just about flat to one said his was about 22 inches high. I don't remember at what yardage if any these were taken at.
What I do remember about the article,and I found the most interesting...... despite the great variety of POIs , is that they ALL seen the same thing when they pulled the trigger. Lester

 

Wow , can 100 % high only be 15" high from center of bore ? It's all guessing after shooting a 16 yd target.....right ?

 

I’m not sure I understand your point of view, but my understanding of 100% pattern is that all of the shot pattern is above and resting on the point of aim at 27 yards. As viewed on a pattern board shot from 81 feet. (27 yards)

John

 

You don't shoot Annie Oakleys, do you?

Good question
I am caught between shooting registered trap and fun and games shooting in the off season.
I am into the Harlan Campbell high gun high POI program for registered trap. But find that I need to shoot a flatter gun for games.
I have a KX - 5 shooting flat for games and a KX-6S for registered trap.
I can’t honestly say that the transition between the 2 guns is seamless, but the two disciplines are different

John

 

Good question

Annie Oakleys with your KX-6S with that high rib will help you with the KX5 for other games. At our club we have a guy who specializes in picking off the bird after 2 or three have missed it, and he does it with a 80/20 BT-99 AR. He's still not quite there with his 90/10 Ljutic Pro3. But he just got it in May.

 

Cover the bird? Lots of times. I agree with Remdog. I shoot a 50/50 sporting clays gun. When people talk about Annie Oakleys I presume those are all outgoing targets. They never get too high and then drop. What about an incoming chandelle thrown from over a hundred yards away? With a high POI gun you don't have much of a chance. Sporting clays thrown up from towers or high lifts are the type of target where I tend to cover the bird.
The current sporting clays targets du jour at big shoots are stuff below your feet to start. Crossing. outgoing down a hillside or thrown down from a tower or hill under big springs. Not too conducive to high POI.
I believe the secret to sporting clays is connecting with the target. This is done more easily when your eye is close to the bore and the gun patterns 50/50. This after 135,000 registered sporting clay targets and a number of different coaches.. There is a greater variability in sporting clays due to the targets. Not many people have access to 70mm traps and targets. Battues, rabbits on the ground and in the air. If you bring a high shooting gun, bring your checkbook.

 

I think your first line is where you go wrong in your math.
81 feet is where I would like to empty my gun, standing at the sixteen yard line. Lester

 

rwtii, What makes you think I don't shoot falling targets or targets below my feet as good with a high shooting 80/20 or 90/10 gun?
Since I shoot a high POI, it is difficult for me to see why anyone would ever want to block out a bird with their barrel. But I am open minded enough and shoot with enough different guys that I can see almost any POI works if you have learned your target pictures and have experience.