The hulls don't match the box. 8 shot vs, 71/2. Did you by chance get reloads?

 

I have both 8 shot and 71/2 in the same shell, I just picked-up the closest box which happened to be 71/2 shot. Same exact shell (other than shot size) and all purchased new from the manufacturer.

Thanks,
Bob

 

Looking for an opinion/answer to the following. Bellow are some pics of fired shells from today; some of the fired hulls on these RST paper shells are "split" down one side. The shells functioned perfectly, no duds or odd sounding reports, everything was normal. After I was done shooting I noticed a few of these "split" hulls, there were only three (3) that I found out of the box of 25. I was using an Ithaca Flues SBT today and like using these paper shells with my vintage guns. This could have happened before and I just never noticed it.

Is this something that can happen with paper shells, or is there an issue here, maybe a safety issue? This caused me some concern (seems odd) so I wanted to double check before I used these shells again. Thank you for looking, appreciate any insight.

Thanks,
Bob

View attachment 1625575 View attachment 1625577 View attachment 1625579 View attachment 1625581 View attachment 1625583 View attachment 1625585

Not unusual for paper shells in older guns. Appears bases are pretty stretched. Oversize chamber? Head space? My Greener used to do this once in a while. Especially in reloads which these might have been.

 

Thanks, that is good to hear. The shells were brand spanking new in the box from RST. So if someone had backbored the barrel, could that cause the splitting?

Bob

 

The euro papers aren't very high quality, not even close to a Federal paper. I wouldn't get worried about it.

 

RST’s are a U.S. made, high quality shell for vintage guns. This was the first time I had seen a paper shell split, but it sounds like it can happen.

 

Cheddite 12ga 65mm paper-tube red (bag/100)-ballisticproducts.com

 

I see where you are coming from now, thanks for pointing out. I don’t reload, so I was not aware.

Thanks,
Bob

 

Bob: It may be that the chambers have been honed to clean up pitting. The entrance to the chambers of c. 1900 12g U.S. maker's doubles is usually .809” -.812”, tapering to .795” - .798”. Note also that the firing pin indentation is slightly off-center.
That said, if slightly oversized, with adequate wall thickness, it is not a safety issue.

 

Lots of Second Hand Opinions Here.....Have used RST Products before in Vintage Barreled Guns. I Think...I would be Calling Them to Advise and Consult with Their R&D Department About Those Split Shells.
Am Sure They would Like Box Information for Lot and Date Run... of Those Shells. And Please Keep Us Posted...As Inquiring Minds...Must Know..LOL

 

Bob,

Can you get us a measurement of the chamber ?

AND perhaps an outside measurement of the paper before it is fired, and then after the split ?

I am also suspect of an oversized chamber.

Those splits just look too wide for a standard sized bore.

Just my 2c

 

I had this happen with Fiocchi paper shells many years back. They split and the ends were blowing off. I called Fiocchi and they took the remaining shells back and sent me a refund.
I have also seen old Federal Papers do this if you tried for multiple upon multiple reloadings.

 

I suspect the Fiocchi papers are rebranded Cheddite hulls as well, I doubt Fiocchi would make their own paper hulls when the production of them must be tiny compared to plastic.

 

All - I will have my gunsmith take a measurement of the chamber and look at the shells and let you know what is determined. I will also follow-up with RST and let you know, although I would like to know the answer to the chamber question first. It might take a little time to get the chamber measurement, but I will report back once I have all the info. Drew, I wish we lived closer!

The gun in question is a 1916 Ithaca Flues 7E SBT, more to follow.

Thanks for all the responses.
Bob

 

I would be more concerned about those primers in a vintage gun than the poor quality tubes. But that's me and now we'll probably have all the avid users of this primer claiming no issues!

Can I ask what the concern is with the primers? Just trying to get all the info I can on this.

Thanks,
Bob

 

I don't care what people proclaim about the primers those hills have, they are hard on firing pins in general but more so with the older steels. My opinion/how I feel, backed up by one of the top Smith's in the country.

 

I bought 4 flats of these shells and have had no issues so far. However, 2 flats were 8's and 2 were suppose to be 7.5. The boxes are labeled for 7.5 but all of the shells contained therein are marked 8 shot.

 

John - Good to know. Once I get some more information on the chamber dimensions I'll report back. I'll also try these shells in another gun and see if the same splitting occurs, could be a gun specific issue.

Thanks,
Bob

 

The Cheddite paper hulls are pretty brittle. I bought a quantity of 20-gauge new hulls a couple years ago and loaded them with a light charge of powder and 3/4 oz shot. A couple split on the first loading and virtually all split on the second. They were shot through four different guns, so it wasn't oversize chambers. I have Federal paper 20-gauge hulls that will do four or five reloads before expiring. They usually crack at the brass before the paper splits, being 30 or more years old.

 

Thanks, good to know. I'll try shooting these shells in a few different guns and see what happens. I'm not up on all the different shell component manufacturer's, as I just buy factory loads and do not re-load, so this has really been enlightening. Based on all the feedback on Cheddite hulls and primers, I'm a little surprised they are used in RST shells, which I always thought were top flight, and do have the price tag to go with that assumption.

Bob

 

All I used were Cheddite primers for years, maybe up to 40,000. Then one barrel on a Parker hammer gun would pierce a primmer. Then I picked up a 1873 Remington hammer lifter and both barrels would pierce the primers. I sold the last 13,000 Cheddites I had and went to Win primers - no more problem. I didn't feel like getting new firing pins made for my old guns. Guys with new guns have also complained about this problem. I believe it's if the firing pin hits the primer at a angle. Cheddites are know for a softer metal. Just what I've found out about primers.

 

I would be more concerned about those primers in a vintage gun than the poor quality tubes.

Your primer indentation was odd. It was not a perfectly round and uniform dimple as it should be. If I were you I would check the rest of the box of shells and see if you have any black marks located inside the dimples. If you have any of these black marks? You are burning the ends off your firing pins. If there are not black marks inside the dimples your OK. As mentioned these are cheddite hulls w/ cheddite primers. They are not of high quality, and have been known to burn off the tips of firing pins on some makes/and models of shotguns.

I too agree that your firearm may have a larger chamber size. This would account for your split hulls. All shotguns are made to certain spec's. There is a max. and a min. size that is acceptable for a chamber. Your shotgun more than likely has a chamber that was built on the larger size. Of course it can't hurt to check this with a gunsmith to find out for sure? Do try a few boxes of shells in your other shotguns to see what happens if you like. Do check your primer indents for flash holes. Even real tiny ones can pit the ends of your firing pins, so check them with your reading glasses if you need them. I stopped using Nobel Sport primers for this very reason. I use nothing but Winchester primers today, when I reload. break em all Jeff

 

Thanks, good to know. I'll try shooting these shells in a few different guns and see what happens. I'm not up on all the different shell component manufacturer's, as I just buy factory loads and do not re-load, so this has really been enlightening. Based on all the feedback on Cheddite hulls and primers, I'm a little surprised they are used in RST shells, which I always thought were top flight, and do have the price tag to go with that assumption.

Bob

Bob, have you tried Federal papers in the old girl to see if she'd do the same to them?

 

You are reading my mind. I like to shoot the papers in the old guns. Can I ask the best place to buy Federal papers online? I would like to try them out.

Thanks for all the information, appreciate it.

Bob

 

Bob,

I took a good look at thee primer and it appears that the firing pin is staying out and actually dragging along the primer (gouging it) and then leaving a drag mark on the primer edge and shell bottom.

I have seen this before, and actually have had a pin break off the tip from this.

I don't have a Flues as of yet in my collection, so I couldn't check to see if the pins retracted or not before opening the gun.

Just an observation.

 

Thanks - I agree, I hope to meet with my gunsmith within the next 3 weeks or so and I will also bring the shells so we can figure out what is going on. I'll also put some other shells through her so we can compare. Will let you know what we find.

Appreciate everyone looking at this.

You need to get a Flues SBT!

 

Trash in, Trash out.

When you use Eurotrash ammo, expect anything to happen.

Good Luck and Good Shooting!

 

I've not seen that kind of a split on Winchester, Remington, or Federal hulls. And I've been known to shoot some old guns.

 

Wanted to provide an update on this shell splitting issue. This weekend I had the chamber on the subject Ithaca 7E measured by my gunsmith and thankfully the measurements were all within factory specifications. Based on this, it appears to me that the Cheddite paper hulls are splitting as they are overly brittle. I have some Federal papers now and will try these out in the 7E when I have it back (I left the 7E with my gunsmith for a minor and unrelated repair). I will also shoot some of these Cheddite hulled shells in some other guns and report back when I have all the information, but this certainly appears to be a shell and not a gun/chamber issue. Hopefully this is helpful information to others (or is a confirmation to some).

 

I've seen many guys put loaded split hulls in the gun shooting trap. Goes off as normal, then they pitch the shell.