Trapshooters Forum banner

Head to head comparison of Browning Invector DS chokes vs Briley Inv DS

2 reading
17K views 48 replies 14 participants last post by  Rhodesengr  
#1 ·
There have been several threads recently where some folks (including some very well known folks) have said very negative things about Browning Invector DS chokes. However, these statements were not supported with any actual data. I asked in those threads for the basis for these negative comments and none was given. I shoot a Citori 725 Trap Max and so far I have only shot actual Browning brand Invector DS chokes; mostly LF and mostly from 16 yards. I wanted to see if there was any truth to the Browning bashing using my gun, my load, and my chokes. If any of you have tried something similar, you know it is a lot of work. I am aware of a video on You Tube that show a single shot each with a Browning choke and a Tru Lok choke and that video makes the Browning version look pretty bad.

I am going to split up posting my results into several posts. There are a number of provisos because this is the first time I have done a numerical analysis like this and there are a number of variables in how exactly you take the data. For example, I had two types of paper and there was an issue with camera resolution so I had to photo each target several times at different resolutions. Next time, I can be more efficient.

My process follows the work of Dr. AC Jones. There are a lot of results published in his book Sporting Shotgun Performance. One thing he didn't do was compare different brands of chokes. Also, his work was done some time ago so things may have changed. I wanted to see what was happening with my actual gun, my actual chokes, using my actual hand loads. The process consists of these steps:
1. Shoot multiple targets for each condition. Three is a bare minimum, five is a decent number for rough results, ten is what you really should do
2. Take a digital photo of each target
3. Analyze each photo with AC Jones' software "Shotgun Insight"
4. Create an Average Analysis using the individual analysis for each target.

Yesterday, I shot 18 targets. My goal was to get five each for Browning LF (Light Full), Browning F (Full), Briley LF, and Briley F. I didn't quite achieve that. I ended up with four targets for each LF choke, three targets for each F choke, all shot at 30 yards. The standard distance for looking at choke patterns is 40 yards and I started at that distance but after four targets (two with Browning LF and 2 with Briley LF) I decided to switch to 30 yards for the testing. I am not including the 40 yard shots in the analysis at this point. I do plan to go back and see how the 40 yard data compares with the 30 yard data but at 40 yards, a fair number of pellets were missing the paper. As I mentioned, I had two types of paper. AC Jones recommends white paper and that is much harder to acquire than brown Kraft paper. I went out yesterday with two rolls of paper, both bought on Amazon. One roll was pure white, 48" across, but only 3 mil thick. The other roll was a Trimaco product that is white on one side and brown on the back. It is nice and thick at 8 mil but the whiteness is not a bright white. It was also only 3 feet across. The color is important when you use Shotgun Insight because white gives you more contrast and the software has an easier time finding the holes. I found that at 30 yards, 3 foot width was enough, and the thicker paper was easier to handle and it analyzed well enough. I do plan to try one or two other papers but now I know 3 feet is wide enough and that width is more available.

The load for all the shots was a load I've been using for quite some time. It uses Fiocchi clear hulls, Fiocchi 616 primers, Fiocchi 1oz wads, 1oz of Lawrence Magnum shot, and Clays powder dropped with a #33 bushing. That gives me an average of 18.6 grains which should be going out at around 1250fps. I have not measured this actual load but have shots hundreds of them.

I am going to end this first post with a simple summary. Data will follow in other posts.

Summary: I did not find anything to support statements that Browning Invector DS chokes suck. In fact, I found that for both LF and F chokes, Browning was more consistent than Briley. I will have to explain what I mean by "consistent" when I show the data. Both produced (on average) Gaussian shot distributions both vertically and horizontally (no holes or gaps with either). However, the Briley F was a slightly larger pattern than their own LF which is opposite of what you expect. Browning F was slightly smaller pattern than LF as expected.
 
#2 ·
First I will show a couple of raw photos. This one is the 48", 3mil white paper. The Amazon link is
Here is the photo. This was one of the 40 yard shots.
Image


Here is one of the photos using the thicker "White Top" paper from Trimaco
Image


The orange dots were just so I had something to aim at. The software finds the actual center of the pattern. It will tell you your POI vs POA but I was free holding the gun (not bagging it). For what I was doing here (choke patterns) I didn't really care about POI vs POA. I just need to get the shot on the paper.
 
#3 ·
For the data, I am going to jump to the end and show the average files. This first one shows the Light Full chokes. Browning on the left and Briley on the right
Image

The second one is for the Full chokes:
Image


There are a LOT of numbers shown and I am still learning what they all mean and how to interpret the results but here are some highlights. One simple way to look at patterns is to look at the size of a circle than contains 75% of the pellets. Averaging three shots with the F chokes and 4 shots with the LF chokes, the 75% circles are:
Browning LF: 19.24 inches
Browning F : 18.12 inches
Briley LF : 20.85 inches
Briley F : 21.76 inches
So based on my shots yesterday, the Briley F has a 1" larger 75% circle than Briley LF which is backwards. Browning F is in fact about 1" smaller than there own LF. So if you are keeping score, that is one point against Briley.
What I think is more interesting is the consistencies are systematically different between brands. Under the 75% circle diameters is a shot to shot variation in that size. That number is also expressed as a percent.

Here are the consistency numbers:
Browning LF: 0 .43" 2.2%
Browning F : 1.33" 7.4%
Briley LF : 1.58" 7.6%
Briley F : 4.13" 19%

For both brands the F chokes were less consistent than the LF chokes. Maybe that was because I only had three targets for F vs four targets for LF, or maybe the F chokes are actually less consistent. But both both F and LF chokes, Browning was more consistent shot to shot. That is another point against Briley.

The graphs show the distributions fit to a Gaussian curve. The expectation is that the shot distributions should follow a Gaussian curve and this is true for both. Neither has the shot displaced or has any significant holes in the pattern.

One final thing I highlight for these files are the hit probabilities. The probabilities are shown for three circle sizes: 10", 20", and 30"
These results make the Briley look a little better.
At 10", all four chokes are essentially 100% hit.
At 20", all four chokes are in the 96% range and there is not significant difference between the brands.
However, at 30" this are some differences.
Browning LF: 76.8%
Browning F : 76.0%
Briley LF : 81.7%
Briley F : 80.2%
The Briley chokes are about 4% more likely to hit a clay within a 30" circle at 30 yards. I think you can explain this simply from the 75% circle sizes. Briley has bigger patterns for both chokes so you would expect a few more pellets between 20 and 30 inches. That is in fact the case but I'll let you look at the numbers and find the counts between 20 and 30 inches. Remember, the Briley F choke was the biggest 75% circle of the four I tested yesterday. I would theorize you can get that same performance with better consistency by going to the Browning IM choke. I have IM chokes for both brands and I will be testing those on my next session.

Of course, none of this says anything about other brands like Carlson or Tru Lok but I doi think it puts to rest claims that there are is major issue with Browning DS chokes. At least comapred to Briley, they have a tighter pattern and have better consistency.

Next I post post some of the individual shot files, at least one for each choke.
 
#4 ·
Here is one of the shots with Browning LF
Image


Here is one of the shots with Browning F
Image


Here is a shot with Briley LF
Image

and finally one shot with Briley F
Image

This one looks OK for an F choke but the 3rd shot with Briley F had 26" circle so that jacked up the average. Briley just doesn't seem as consistent for whatever reason.

One thing the software can do is predict the pattern at a different yardage. I plan to use this 30 yard data to see how things look at 40 yards.
 

Attachments

#6 · (Edited)
Nice work. I am glad your work is reinforcing your confidence in your equipment and ammo.

If you have a bore measuring device, include the bore diameter, choke diameter, and therefore the actual amount of constriction. There is a good chance that the constriction is not identical between manufacturers. And I would predict that identical constriction would produce nearly identical results regardless of manufacturer, if enough samples were analyzed. Some choke manufacturers sell by the choke diameter, allowing you to pick how much constriction you want instead of a generic label.
 
#8 ·
Nice work.

If you have a bore measuring device, include the bore diameter, choke diameter, and therefore the actual amount of constriction. There is a good chance that the constriction is not identical between manufacturers.
well actually, I am intentionally avoiding bore measurements. I saw that most of the "Browning Bashing" was based on bore measurements. Most people found Browning constriction to be be tighter than "normal" or "expected" for a given choke designation. The only thing that matters at all is patterns downrange. If one brand's IM is another brands LF in terms of actual performance then that is OK but if there are consistency issues, that is something else.
 
#9 ·
Again, I am not interested in bore measurements. I will leave it to others to make those measurements if they want. All I care about is actual patterns. I agree my statistics are marginal and I need more shots but when it hit 90 degrees, I had to stop. I am shooting 1oz on purpose for a number of reasons so I wanted to see what my actual patterns are with my actual load. I have read all the 1 vs 1.125 oz load debates. I even had one of my own a while back.

F’s and LF’s have no value in a stats project.
IM, LF, or F and brand are what I pull out of my choke box and screw into my gun. Not .720" or whatever.
 
#10 · (Edited)
Mark @Rhodesengr ,

You're starting to see how much of a pain this is.

A few comments and questions:

1. Did you count the pellets in the cartridges to get a baseline to do the pattern percentages? I assume the cartridges are all using the same shot from the same bag? You really need to count pellets to assure the percentages are based on a real number, not an assumed quantity. I have found a large variance in pellet numbers in a cartridge that is supposed to have 394...

2. Did you measure the constrictions on the various chokes you tested to see if there is a remarkable difference in the internal diameter. Just shooting from the hip, I'm going to guess that the Briley F has a smaller choke diameter than the Browning F.

3. It's better to shoot more patterns than 3-4. Neil and I found that 10 is about the right quantity to tell the story.

4. The numbers you are getting with the small sample size you have are not statistically significant (that is, 76.8% is not really different from 76.0%, statistically speaking.) In order to confirm this, you need to calculate using "Student's T-Test."

5. Similarly, the 81.7% is probably also not statistically different from the 80.2%. But again, 3 or 4 patterns won't be able to tell you the whole story. Ten are really needed.

6. Not sure what you are getting at with the term you are calling "consistency." Can you clarify?

Good work.

Tim
 
#14 ·
You're starting to see how much of a pain this is.
It is tedious but sometimes I like doing this kind of thing. I mean, I wanted to know if there was some serious flaw in my Browning chokes.

1. Did you count the pellets in the cartridges to get a baseline to do the pattern percentages? I assume the cartridges are all using the same shot from the same bag? You really need to count pellets to assure the percentages are based on a real number, not an assumed quantity. I have found a large variance in pellet numbers in a cartridge that is supposed to have 394...
No not yet. I just used the number found as the number in the shell. There is a discrepancy because if I look up how many pellets should be in 1oz of 7.5, the tables say about 350 but I am seeing about 410 holes per target. Maybe the software is double counting some holes or maybe I really have 410 per shell. Counting pellets sounds really boring but I know I need to do it at some point.

2. Did you measure the constrictions on the various chokes you tested to see if there is a remarkable difference in the internal diameter. Just shooting from the hip, I'm going to guess that the Briley F has a smaller choke diameter than the Browning F.
No and I don't plan to. Others asked the same thing. I doubt one measurement predicts choke performance. I suspect the entire taper matters so I will just shoot targets.

3. It's better to shoot more patterns than 3-4. Neil and I found that 10 is about the right quantity to tell the story.
I know and I mentioned this upfront. This was all I could do yesterday due to time and heat.

6. Not sure what you are getting at with the term you are calling "consistency." Can you clarify?
I explained (I think) in the second post. Consistency is range of results about the average. With the full chokes, Briley three shots had 75% circles of 18,20, and 26 inches. Shots with browning Full were 16.95, 17.85, and 19.57. More consistent. In the Average files, this shows up on the "Shot to Shot Variation " line.
 
#11 ·
I have read all the 1 vs 1.125 oz load debates. I even had one of my own a while back.
There's no debate. All things equal, the pattern percentages will be about the same, but there will always be more pellets in the pattern where it counts with the 1-1/8 ounce load than the 1 ounce load.
 
#37 ·
Exactly.

Like the original poster, I shoot a TrapMax that I bought about 3 years ago, which included the standard set of Browning chokes. Using a bore gauge, the "Modified" choke, which should have been .020 constriction was .008. The "Full" choke was .020.

I sold the set on eBay and bought a set of Briley choke tubes. Their .020 "Modified" measured .020 on the bore gauge, etc., etc., etc.
 
#18 · (Edited)
No not yet. I just used the number found as the number in the shell.
Cut apart 3 shells or so and count pellets. That will give you a number to go by. Get a pellet counting tray. @pheasantmaster got one recently. 3D printed. You might see where he got his.

Maybe the software is double counting some holes or maybe I really have 410 per shell.
The program should put a little green dot onto the photograph where it perceives a pellet strike. You have to tinker with the system to make sure that your scale (both X and Y) is right*, and that the program is finding all the holes, while not perceiving wrinkles or shadows or other stuff as holes. I zoom WAY in and go through the photos with a fine-toothed comb, literally inch by inch, to make sure it's counting what it should, and not counting what it shouldn't. This is where the tedium comes in to play.

You can manually add pellet strikes if the program misses them, and you can manually "erase" strikes it counts but shouldn't have.

There is a slider that changes the "resolution" and you have to sometimes mess with that to get it to read the strikes better. Hope this makes sense.

*my patterning board has two 4' long aluminum measuring 'yardsticks' screwed to it so I can use the scaling feature in the program to assure that the software has the paper size perfect.

I doubt one measurement predicts choke performance.
It absolutely, positively, IS the best prediction of choke performance. Nothing else matters. Not how long the taper is, not how long the "parallel section" is. It's all about the difference between bore and choke diameter.

I suspect the entire taper matters so I will just shoot targets.
Doesn't matter a bit. Dr. Jones tested Teague chokes against other chokes. Teague chokes are all tapered from beginning to end, no "parallel section" at all. It makes no difference. It's all about the difference between bore and choke diameter.

Consistency is range of results about the average.
Gotcha. Don't worry about it. With the variation in a gazillion things it could be, it's not the choke. The choke is just a machined steel tube.

It's the ammo you are using, or the slight change in the breeze when you took that shot, or whatever. I frequently get 10% and sometimes as much as 20% variation from the worst pattern percentage in the group to the best in a group of 10 patterns. Neil found this to be the case too. That's why you need to do 10. One or two or three might be giving you a false picture of reality. 10 gives you a better idea of what the choke/ammo combination is really doing.
 
#19 ·
The program should put a little green dot onto the photograph where it perceives a pellet strike.
Pretty sure I am using the software correctly. I made a stick 30" long. I made marks horizontally and vertically 30" apart and set the arrows on the marks in the software. I did zoom way in and checked every green dot. I blocked off false reads and added in hole the software missed. I slowly scrolled across the entire image and checked every hole.

OK. I will measure the chokes. I don't actually have a bore gause but I have a nice micrometer and inside bore measuring "feelers"

Counting tray sounds like a very good idea. I don't have to cut anything open. I can just count some actual actual drops. That is what I did just a bit ago.
 
#22 ·
Pretty sure I am using the software correctly. I made a stick 30" long. I made marks horizontally and vertically 30" apart and set the arrows on the marks in the software. I did zoom way in and checked every green dot. I blocked off false reads and added in hole the software missed. I slowly scrolled across the entire image and checked every hole.
Sounds like you're doing it right.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Runngun #1
#23 ·
Bore gauges are fun. Bring one to the club one day, then watch the crowd gather. It is always amusing to see the looks on peoples faces when a measurement is different than what they were expecting.
I have a bore gauge with heads for 12, 16, 20, 28 and .410. It’s saved me and my friends thousands of dollars while used gun shopping and lets me know what chokes I actually have. Yes, it gathers a crowd. My gun cradle and measuring tools for drop, cast and lop are an even bigger hit!
 
#24 ·
OK, my inside bore gauges only go up to .5 inch so I can't use my micrometer but I can do something quick with my caliper.
Briley full is supposed to .035 constriction. I am getting .705-.706 so that looks as expected
Briley Light full is supposed to be .030 constriction, I am getting .7095 so also as expected.
Briley IM is supposed to be .025 constriction. I am getting .7145. I have not shot that one yet.

Browning F I am getting .700
Browning LF I am getting .712
That is as good as I can do until I get a larger bore feeler. Others have measure Browing DS chokes and that is what the other posts also say.
 
#26 · (Edited)
So, I got bored tonight. Yes, I had nothing to do, and I hade a bore gauge. So, I measured my two brownings Invector Plus.
Citori XT - Bore = .741, full choke=.709 for .032 constriction
BT-99 ( early gen 2) Bore= .738 full choke = .709 for .029 constriction.
I have one IM choke at .715 (stainless steel) and another at .722 (black)
And two Mod at .729

So many of my Browning Invector Plus tubes have less constriction than expected, and my BT 99 is not back bored as much as my XT, meaning my invector plus choke tubes have even less constriction in my BT 99. My browning full chokes are close enough if you consider .030 as full, many would not consider that full. Both my Mod chokes are closer to Impoved cylinder. One IM is spot on, the other not constricted enough.

That's why having a bore gauge is so much fun. Actual dimensions can be all over the place, at least where thousandths of an inch are concerned. Also good to know if I ever earn any yardage and want a true full choke for my BT99

BTW: I bought this one 20 years ago: Skeets shotgun bore gauge standard length 12.5” reading depth | eBay. Made in China, but A LOT less expensive than some of the other ones I have seen. And it works well enough for what we are talking about using it for in this thread.
 
#27 ·
Not to throw a damper on your work, but Browning tells us themselves their DS tubes throw different patterns than most other chokes, although the largest difference seems to be in constrictions looser than most use for trap shooting. There is no magic here though, as it accomplished by using looser constrictions in a given choke designation than their competitors. You proved chokes with constrictions between .030" and .040", regardless of what designation is attached by the manufacturer, are suitable for breaking targets at 30 yards. That isn't exactly ground breaking news, as it replicates what Dr. Jones, Neil, and Tim have already told us. Perhaps repeat your patterning at 40 yards and determine what constriction you find minimally acceptable at that range, then you're all set to determine which choke(s) you want to use based on constriction, but I'll bet it will be right in line with what Dr. Jones, Neil, and Tim have already told us. If it were me, and it was when I shot a 725, I'd screw it the Browning Full (mine was .040") and be done with it.

Invector-DS - Shotgun Choke Tubes - Browning

Not to take anything away from your efforts, as confirmation of past tests certainly has value, but it seems you have proven:

1. Only constriction, not manufacturer designation, matters.
2. There is nothing new under the sun.
 
#28 ·
Not to throw a damper on your work
Not at all and thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed my main motivation. Comments were made in another thread like:
"Browning chokes are good for paper weights"
"Just throw them away"
"Browning chokes don't perform. Many of my student have this out the hard way"
etc.
Plus, there is that You Tube video I mentioned which in a single shot tends to make the Browning choke look bad.

When I asked in that thread for some details on exactly how Browning chokes didn't perform, I got no replies. So I wanted to see for myself and I picked Briley as one aftermarket choke to compare with.

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see any particular performance problem with my Browning DS chokes. I just wanted to see for myself with my load, my gun and my chokes.
 
#29 ·
Not at all and thanks for your reply. I think you may have missed my main motivation. Comments were made in another thread like:
"Browning chokes are good for paper weights"
"Just throw them away"
"Browning chokes don't perform. Many of my student have this out the hard way"
etc.
Plus, there is that You Tube video I mentioned which in a single shot tends to make the Browning choke look bad.

When I asked in that thread for some details on exactly how Browning chokes didn't perform, I got no replies. So I wanted to see for myself and I picked Briley as one aftermarket choke to compare with.

Maybe I am missing something but I don't see any particular performance problem with my Browning DS chokes. I just wanted to see for myself with my load, my gun and my chokes.
Kudos to you for putting in the work to figure it out. I will throw this in and it is based off of what I have read on here, I haven't taken the time to do all of the work you are putting in to test my DS chokes. I only have one gun that has them, it is a 20 ga 725 that I just shoot for fun so I haven't patterned it like I have my trap guns with Invector and Invector Plus chokes. The complaint I have heard with the factory DS chokes is the constrictions are all over the place. The actual constriction doesn't match the letter designation on the tube. This is why many are saying to measure the tubes you are testing. I think if the factory tube actually measures out at a full then it will perform as well as any aftermarket tube. The issue is many receive a factory tube marked full and it actually measures out at a modified or even more open.
 
#30 ·
What this is going to come down to, as always is, shoot a fixed Full/IM/ Mod. choke for everything that the barrel came with. Save yourself the time and money to do this crazy testing that will only mess with your brain to the point that you will need to lay on a couch, and tell someone about your psychological disorder to gain one more bird. Choke tubes from a different manufacture than the gun is a marketing ploy that has stolen many dollars from the psychologically deranged trapshooters that do only one thing, make you concentrate harder on the bird simply because of the confidence a change gives you. Many different things can be done for much cheaper, and less hassle, like wearing the same underwear that you shot good in last time.:p
 
#39 ·
I was not saying those aftermarket chokes are not good. Just saying why pay extra for something that is not proven to be better than the original chokes that came with the barrel. The only chokes I would say would be better is if the barrel is tuned (Wilkinson) to the custom chokes. That way you at least know the patterns are good, or better. The constrictions, or numbers don't mean anything really, besides being an indicator of a tighter pattern. Does not mean that every choke performs to that constriction difference in numbers. Brownings constrictions have pretty much always been a little more open, compared to other choke constrictions. It is the patterns, and performance that matters most with all chokes.
 
#31 ·
Actual words used to bash Browning brand DS chokes from the thread on July 27
"The 725 factory chokes do NOT perform!! I have had many students find this out the hard way. "
I asked how they don't perform and got no answer. Here is some actual data. Can you tell me in what way they arrn't performing?

"the factory chokes are good paper weights"

"Junk! Please do yourself a favor and give them to someone that you don’t like!"

"I highly recommend replacing the factory DS chokes with good aftermarket chokes (Carlson's, Briley, Comp-N-Choke, etc.) "

Nothing specific about what is wrong with them. This thread has at least some actual data. I am coming into this with a completely open mind. For the peopl who think there is something wrong with the browning chokes, please be specific. OK, I get that many have said the constrictions don't match what people expect for a certain type (F, LF, IM, M etc). I posted some preliminary measurements and some things are apparent.
Browning F is 5mil tighter than Briley F and my data shows browning has , on average a smaller 75% circle. So no big surprise there.
Browning LF is 2mil more open than Briley LF yet, at with with my shots, the Browning makes a tighter pattern with less shot to shot variability.
Just calling it like I see it. Not a particular proponent of Browning but I had to know if something was actually wrong with my factory chokes.

Better bore measurements in a few days.
 
#32 · (Edited)
I think the factory Browning chokes perform just as good as a choke from any other manufacturer of the same diameter. But as you can see, many of the chokes that came with my Brownings are constricted less than the designation would suggest. That pisses people off. It makes people wonder if the old saying "our chokes don't have specified diameters, they have specified patterns" is pure BS meant to cover up for inconsistent manufacturing tolerances. They don't want people demanding refunds or exchanges for a IM choke of only .019 constriction, or Mod choke of only .012. With that kind of stuff out there, you can not blame people for preferring Briley chokes that come closer or at the specified diameter. But in the end, the Browning chokes performs as well as any other choke of the same diameter. Measure your chokes and your barrel, if it isn't the constriction you want, buy a choke that is. Simple as that.

Which is what I did - I just ordered a Briley flush fit Invector Plus extra full, which should come in at about a diameter of .702, and if it does, that will give my .738 bore BT-99 a choke of .036 instead of the .029 I currently have with a Browning Invector plus full choke. I won't be using my other Browning chokes as paper weights, I will be keeping them for the day I want a choke of those diameters.
 
#34 ·
I tried to put together a table of actual choke bores to see how the different companies label different constrictions. NA means that company doesn't make that label. From a bore perspective, Browning does seem like the odd ball because they are tighter than the others at F but looser for LF or IM. With the non-Browning companies, the only types they all agree on is IM at 715 and EF at 700. I guess some of you knew all this but I didn't see it all in ne place elsewhere. Briley's line is nice and simple with product for every label and simple 5mil steps in between. This is why I choose Briley to compare with my Brownings. I have not actually tested my IM chokes yet but will when I can. I guess the argument here is that I'd need to get a Briley EF to compare with a Browning F but I am still concerned that, at least in my tests so far, the Briley's seemed less consistent shot to shot than my Brownings. If I got any of these number wrong, let me know so I can fix them.
Choke tube ID (mils) by brand for Invector DS
BrowningBrileyTru LockCarlsonComp N Choke
IM723715715715715
LF712710NANA710
F700705710710705
EFNA700700700NA