[BryanF]

Let's argue Jerry's opinion but, don't try it because he may be right. People don't reach his level by blowing smoke.

 

[HSLDS]

I wasn't addressing the video. I was addressing the OP's summation.

Well, neurology and physiology are my area of endeavor. I take Muculek at his word - he is merely making an observation of what he has seen shooting and coaching shooters.

I have discussed this ad nauseam with the likes of Will Fennel and Joe Goldberg.

Now I am not a big fan of the term 'muscle memory' - muscles have no memory, it has more to do within strengthening neural pathways and imprinting them into our CNS's. Regardless, with that in mind you have a model for the visual influence on flinching.

When you shoot - as you see the target, follow the target, and shoot the target you are operating on at least two data sets. One is the visual information coming in through your eyes. One is the imprinted pathways in your CNS - a 'map' if you will of the expected information coming in through your eyes. Your brain wants those two data sets to be nearly identical - variation causes hesitation - too much hesitation and you have a miss or a flinch.

There is a model here for why flinching tends to increase with age - your vision also changes with age - so the expected map and the incoming visual data tend to vary more and more... and there is your flinch.

 

[mdd7857524]

For clarification -- when we talk about flinching, does that mean you are taking your finger off the trigger after calling pull, at some point? I'm fairly new at trap shooting and have a coach who seems pretty knowledgeable (he's shot registered 100's). He said that he sees me take my finger almost completely off the trigger and then put it back on while moving the gun. He said that that delay from not having my finger on the trigger the entire time is causing me to shoot over the target. Is this issue the exact same thing as flinching, or something else? If it's something else, does it have a name?

He told me to practice taking the slack out of the trigger as I mount and continuing to focus on not letting that slack out. This seems to work when I execute it, but I get anxious that I could accidentally discharge into the back of the trap house when I'm at my hold points before I call pull, or as I call pull. Any advice on this?

When I am practicing by myself and am able to 100% focus on not disconnecting from the trigger I usually miss 3 birds or less per game in singles and shoot 19-21 25y handicap. When this creeps in and unravels I can shoot a 17 in singles and as bad as a 15 or 14 handicap.

The anxiety/interference with doing this fix especially comes up during league when there are tons of people around and I'm super concerned about not accidentally shooting the back of the house. I have no issue with disconnecting when shooting skeet/sporting clays that I'm aware of. Any advice/insight?

 

[Drew Hause]

No, it's not a "flinch".

The Task-specific Focal Dystonia that we call a “flinch” is a 2-part event (though occurring almost instantaneously):
1st is the “trigger freeze” from involuntary and dysfunctional contraction of opposing small muscles in the hand and forearm, followed by
2nd an entertaining variety of bodily reactions; lunging, jerking, stumbling toward the trap house, etc. involving large muscles.
The reason we can't pull a pull trigger is because the extensor muscles (Extensor indicis and Extensor pollicis longus) are contracting rather than relaxing, and the flexor muscle (Flexor digitorum profundus) will not contract (that’s the short version and ignores the contribution of the Lumbricals and Interossei).

Recoil clearly contributes to flinching, but there is no recoil in putting or throwing a dart, and people still "yip" or have "dartitis"

Almost all of us push our bodies forward with recoil (obvious when we have a dud), but that is recoil compensation, not a flinch.

Recoil/noise avoidance flinching before the shot (ducking the head, closing the eyes, being unable to pull the trigger without jerking) is a physiologic response to an unpleasant stimulus, is not a task-specific focal dystonia, and one can become accustomed to the stimulus, and the response thereto attenuated.

There are visual flinches. If I'm not precise in placing the cursor arrow exactly where it needs to be, I flinch. If I cover the target with the barrel, I can flinch.

The dystonia in ‘dartitis’, archer's ‘trigger panic’, and throwing a baseball or cricket ball is failure to relax the muscles ie. inability to “let go”; the opposite of a shooter’s ‘trigger freeze’.

Moving the gun before the target appears has been called “forecasting the target” and is purposeful (though involuntary), rather than a dystonia.

I have no idea what you are doing with your trigger finger, but the cure is to become a trigger "slapper", NOT to "stage" the trigger.

 

[HSLDS]

Drew,

Let me dig out some stuff, cogitate on t a wee bit and I'll try to address your queries.

 

[Drew Hause]

We've had this conversation a few times but I do appreciate the research.

Blame it all on the “sensorimotor cortex along with its basal ganglia interconnections, but also the cerebellum and cerebello-thalamic pathway, have been related to dystonic pathophysiology…”
Nature Neuroscience, February 22, 2024
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41593-024-01570-1
“Mapping dysfunctional circuits in the frontal cortex using deep brain stimulation”

 

[Boss458357]

Ok I absolutely agree with Drew learn to Slap the trigger!
I would go crazy trying to take up slack in the trigger and follow the target .
Lock on bird then slap the trigger I would forget people around you only you and the target .
If you can take a class with Phil Kiner or Nora Ross.

 

[Matthew]

I also don't give a crap that he is a good shooter even if he is Annie Oakley reincarnated. That does not make him a nuero-specialist. Vision has nothing to do with trigger freeze.

Now, as soon as someone can explain how release triggers magically solve a vision processing problem, I'll listen. Until then, it's just people's butts talkin'.

Strange to me you said who is Jerry Miculek then go on to say he knows nothing about the problem. How is that?

 

[Bowhunter41]

Don’t think just shoot

 

[ganger]

JBrooks, did you read the clarification under the video?

 

[JBrooks]

Strange to me you said who is Jerry Miculek then go on to say he knows nothing about the problem. How is that?

Anyone who claims trigger freeze in trapshooting is a visual problem has the unenviable task of explaining how a release trigger eliminates the "visual" problem. So far, no one has done that. But, go ahead, you may as well take a shot at it if you want.

 

[peavine]

Is it flinching if a shooter can not set a release with the gun closed on their shoulder ready to call?

 

[JBrooks]

When you shoot - as you see the target, follow the target, and shoot the target you are operating on at least two data sets. One is the visual information coming in through your eyes. One is the imprinted pathways in your CNS - a 'map' if you will of the expected information coming in through your eyes. Your brain wants those two data sets to be nearly identical - variation causes hesitation - too much hesitation and you have a miss or a flinch.

And how does a release trigger magically reconcile the visual data and the CNS imprinted data?

 

[JBrooks]

Is it flinching if a shooter can not set a release with the gun closed on their shoulder ready to call?

Not a flinch, just an extension of the dystonia that prevents pulling the trigger during the shot. Obviously, this dystonia also has nothing to do with unreconciled visual data.

 

[UpNorthMN]

I must be the one-off, because I am 100% convinced that the flinching I was dealing with was due to visual issues. In my case my left eye was taking over just as I approached the bird (I'm a right handed shooter). For a millisecond I would see the entire left side of the barrel and flinch, especially on left hand targets. EVERYONE I know that shoots a release told me to shoot a release. I tried one, hated it and dropped out of the game for a few years. Fast forward to this year, shooting one eye (and a pull trigger), I've changed my setup routine, changed my hold points and changed where I look before I call for the target. None of what I am doing is traditional for one-eye shooters, but it is working for me and getting me back in the game. My flinching is for the most part gone (knock on wood) and my scores are improving.

 

[JBrooks]

My flinching is for the most part gone

 

[FarmerMike80]

No, it's not a "flinch".

The Task-specific Focal Dystonia that we call a “flinch” is a 2-part event (though occurring almost instantaneously):
1st is the “trigger freeze” from involuntary and dysfunctional contraction of opposing small muscles in the hand and forearm, followed by
2nd an entertaining variety of bodily reactions; lunging, jerking, stumbling toward the trap house, etc. involving large muscles.
The reason we can't pull a pull trigger is because the extensor muscles (Extensor indicis and Extensor pollicis longus) are contracting rather than relaxing, and the flexor muscle (Flexor digitorum profundus) will not contract (that’s the short version and ignores the contribution of the Lumbricals and Interossei).

Recoil clearly contributes to flinching, but there is no recoil in putting or throwing a dart, and people still "yip" or have "dartitis"

Almost all of us push our bodies forward with recoil (obvious when we have a dud), but that is recoil compensation, not a flinch.

Recoil/noise avoidance flinching before the shot (ducking the head, closing the eyes, being unable to pull the trigger without jerking) is a physiologic response to an unpleasant stimulus, is not a task-specific focal dystonia, and one can become accustomed to the stimulus, and the response thereto attenuated.

There are visual flinches. If I'm not precise in placing the cursor arrow exactly where it needs to be, I flinch. If I cover the target with the barrel, I can flinch.

The dystonia in ‘dartitis’, archer's ‘trigger panic’, and throwing a baseball or cricket ball is failure to relax the muscles ie. inability to “let go”; the opposite of a shooter’s ‘trigger freeze’.

Moving the gun before the target appears has been called “forecasting the target” and is purposeful (though involuntary), rather than a dystonia.

I have no idea what you are doing with your trigger finger, but the cure is to become a trigger "slapper", NOT to "stage" the trigger.

Impossible, I've been told on here recoil flinch is not a thing and might have well called me stupid. Meanwhile I've seen kids at my former club develop horrible flinches from because of it, nope it's my imagination.

 

[Dulcmrman]

I don't know who this guy is but he is full of crap if he thinks trigger freeze in clay target sports is a vision problem. What it is is the same thing as yips in golf and musicians who can no longer play their instruments. Neither of which require any great amount of vision. If you develop trigger freeze, you can screw around like thousands of others have until you get a release trigger or you can be smarter than them and get one the next week.

He is talking about rifle and pistol shooting, not clay sports. He is a world class competitor and has been for decades in that realm.

FWIW,

 

[F*W*F]

Impossible, I've been told on here recoil flinch is not a thing and might have well called me stupid. Meanwhile I've seen kids at my former club develop horrible flinches from because of it, nope it's my imagination.

Not saying this was going on at your old club, but parents buying 6.x pound guns + teams providing 9/8 1200 fps shells = a bad combination.

Larry

 

[Pull & Mark]

explaining how a release trigger eliminates the "visual" problem.

IMO, It Doesn't Solve the Vision Problem. Finches are caused by conflicting data to the brain, and recoil to a small degree. A large section of this data is indeed visual. However we all have two sides of our brain that work independently of each other. So one side of the brain knows to call for bird, then track the bird, and then pull the trigger. So its like a 1, then 2, then pull. While the other sees, moves legs/waist, and pulls the trigger when barrel and target are correctly aligned. So when the 2 sides of brains get conflicting data on 3, we had the problem we typically call a flinch. One side of the brain knows to pull on 3, but the other side says something is not right yet. So, You get a flinch. Its complicated though, because flinches are caused by vision, recoil, and conflicting data at the same time. If just one is not correct, we have a issue.

Now why release trigger work to fix the issue is easy. You ever see a new shooter, be it a man or a woman shoot a firearm for the first time. They pull the trigger and the firearm surprises them. They immediately release all muscles and the firearm drops to the ground. Whether the firearm is still loaded or not. This is how the body works. It can release muscles instantly, when the brains has conflicting data!!! But as we all know its damn near impossible to pull a trigger. Its like our muscles are locked and will not contract, but we can open muscles instantly.
Like also mentioned, we shoot from muscle memory as well. So when we get small conflicting data in our brain. It becomes easy to release the trigger when data is conflicting. Which helps break a percentage of targets, but does not fix any visual issues. You miss all targets if you never pull the trigger. I suppose doing this can help the shooter feel more relaxed, and more confident, after a few hundred targets. Both of which will help the shooter in the long run. Which will help bring his scores back up. The more a shooter finches and does not shoot, the more frustrated the shooter becomes. Which causes more missed targets. Ultimately, the shooter will quit shooting in a short period of time. Or breakdown and buy a release trigger. Just my 2 cents worth on the topic. break em all Jeff