Search - Crossfire on this site. Lots of information.

 

I tried everything and ended up making my own XD Solution. Worked for me.

 

I have a question. I am right handed and right eye dominant, I shoot with both eyes but I feel like there are times when I am picking up the target with my left eye and causing me to shoot behind left target as well as right targets. I will miss several in a row like that then it clears up and I go back to breaking targets. Anyone else have an issue like this?

 

BT99, if you are a 93% shooter one-eyed, shoot one-eyed. Those 7 birds aren't being lost to shooting one-eyed, they have other causes.


It sounds like you are very weakly right eye dominant, to the point where you switch dominant eyes back and forth. Shooting one eyed for a while should help establish the right as more dominant.

 

Basically three choices.
1. More tape.
2. Close the off eye.
3. Shoot from the other shoulder (won't help in every case as you may still need to deal with the off eye if dominance is mixed).

 

Everyone has a theory on eye dominance. They are probably
wrong because they never do solve it. My theory, weak eye
dominance is actually superior. Weak dominance also called
central vision. I believe that is a stupid name for it, because
no one sees with his nose.
The best exercises for training the brain on using the eye
that is lined up with the gun is probably done with a BB
gun. That can get your brained tuned in pretty well to
use eye that is lined up with the barrel. I doubt anyone
wants to do it though.

 

Everyone has a theory on eye dominance. They are probably
wrong because they never do solve it. My theory, weak eye
dominance is actually superior. Weak dominance also called
central vision. I believe that is a stupid name for it, because
no one sees with his nose.
The best exercises for training the brain on using the eye
that is lined up with the gun is probably done with a BB
gun. That can get your brained tuned in pretty well to
use eye that is lined up with the barrel. I doubt anyone
wants to do it though.

It's not a stupid name for it at all. If you want to see what it means by central vision, have someone point at the camera on your phone with both eyes open with their finger eye height and take a picture. Their finger will automatically go in front of their dominant eye. If someone has central vision their finger will be directly in the middle of their nose. I find this the quickest and easiest way to determine eye dominance.

 

I have a weak right dominate eye. If I point at something, I see 2 fingers. If I keep what ever I am focused on between the 2 fingers I end up with my finger on my nose. Since my nose is located centrally between my 2 eyes, sure seems like my vision is centered.

Jason

 

When you end up with your finger on your nose, it is because
your brain was using BOTH eyes, NOT REJECTING one of them.
That is weak dominance, and actually superior, to strong dominance,
because your brain is actually able to use both eyes. With a little
more training you could easily shoot with either hand, no problems.
You just don't know how to train your superior condition.

 

Check out this older thread on the topic and an email to Phil will certainly help.

Visual confusion

I’m right eye dominant (non moving tests indicate) and I shoot off my right shoulder. Sounds perfect. When I mount my gun I see down the top of the rib and the side of barrel fades in and out slightly if that makes sense. If I squint I get a SOLID rib right down the top and side of barrel goes...

www.trapshooters.com

 

I would check out/try the XD Solution. It is like shooting with one eye closed but you retain a portion of the off eye vision when you are locking onto the target. I tried all the techniques - close left eye, blinder on rib, tape on glasses, etc. - but the XD Solution was the best answer for me.

 

I have been shooting for a long time, I just started shooting trap serious about a year and a half ago. I have tired shooting two eyed and was really having a hard time. Today i decided to try it again. I shot a pretty bad score, which I expected to do.

If you only just "tried" shooting both eyes you're not allowing yourself enough time for your eyes and brain to adapt. It is possible to train yourself to shoot with both eyes open, but you need to dive in totally committed to doing it. There are 2 main keys to it, 1) Allow yourself 300 to 500 targets to get comfortable doing it. You should find yourself starting to catch on within the 1st 100 targets if you follow step 2) which is concentrate on focusing hard on only the target. When you are calling for the target be sure to look out beyond the barrel. If your eyes wander over to looking at the bead or the barrel you will have a difficult time learning to shoot with both eyes.

At 63 years old I taught myself to shoot both eyes after being one eyed all my life. Yeah it was very awkward at first, but now I will never go back.

 

I've had trouble with my eyes cross firing for about 10 years.
The only thing that seems to work for me is to close my off eye and keep it closed throughout the shot.
I think this week I will cover the left lens with electrical tape.

 

May want to contact SSP Eyewear. I believe they can help...

 

Dominance Switching Poll
with review of the science

Poll: Corrective measures that have resolved my dominance issues

Finding the "Master Eye"

"The Peculiarities of Vision"

Eye Dominance problems

No dominance with two images

Cross eye dominance

Going from one eye to two

Blurring your cross-dominate eye

Cross firing remedies

 

People have different issues and different degrees of (occasional) cross dominance and there is a host of partial solutions/aids as enumerated in this thread alone.

I tried about everything ever suggested in this forum with varying degrees of success. Even had a pleasant half-hour conversation with Phil Kiner.

The problem is, virtually every suggestion turns a two-eyed shooter into a one-eyed shooter the moment the shot is taken. While that may help eliminate cross-firing, it introduces other ways to miss.

I finally CURED my crossfiring. It may not cure yours, but it's free and easy and can't hurt to try. Rather than close or squint my off eye during the shot, I keep the off eye closed for the 45 seconds I wait until it's my turn. Then I mount the gun and ready for the call with the off eye still closed. When I'm ready, I open both eyes wide, call for the target and execute the shot with both eyes open. Having been closed for 45 seconds, I now have full use of the off eye but it does dot interfere during the 0.5 to 0.7 seconds it takes to crush the target. Then I close it again until my next turn.

After losing 3 points off my average due to cross-firing, I regained those points and more, am shooting the best I've shot my whole life and haven't cross-fired in thousands of shots.

 

I'm an Ophthalmologist and I have done some work with this myself and on another shooting forum. One aspect of vision is that like the rest of our body systems, vision works best when we're not thinking about it.
We see double all the time. Every time you drive and look at the car in from of you, the bugs on your windshield are doubled. It's called physiologic diplopia.

Here's my thoughts:
1. When you shoulder your gun, the eye on the comb should see the beads line up. You should fit the gun well enough and practice shouldering enough that it ends up exactly like that every time.
2. When you shoot, you should shoulder the gun and look down range. Don't look at your gun; just put it on the target/in front of the target.

That said, Mike's method is interesting.

 

I spoke with a guy this evening who was having vision issues. He went to get his vision checked and found out that he does not have a dominant eye. Both eyes take over as dominant at various times. He is going to start shooting as a one eyed shooter.

 

I have heard that this is a common problem with lady shooters.

 

Training the use of your eyes is time consuming. It has to be done for a prolonged period. The BB gun is the most intensive, because you are shooting constantly. You can shoot about every 2 seconds. This keeps the exercise going constantly. Shooting on the skeet or trap field, there is just too much time between shots to get the intensity of training needed. As I said, most people are not going to do it. You can train yourself though to shoot with either eye. I shoot about half my targets right handed and half left handed, both eyes open. It is a learned skill that took a lot of training. I did not believe it could be done before I did it. However, after actually accomplishing it, I had to change my mind. Also you can change your dominance, but no one really goes to the trouble to do it. I changed mine, so I know from first hand experience how I did it.
One thing you will never do though is fix your problem just talking about it on a talk forum. It takes a bunch of training, and using multiple techniques helps. Every instructor has some work-arounds he will recommend, but you probably won't find one that actually developed the skill to shoot with either hand and both eyes open. If you find an instructor that has actually done it, he can probably help you do it. What that means is your instructor is probably just not really educated on the matter, since hardly anyone is and that is understandable, and that is why when these discussions come up, they never go anywhere. I don't know just how long it would take any one person to develop this sort of skill, but my guess is anyone should be able to do it in under 2 months providing they do the required exercises.

The average person though is going to do no more than fool around with it for a little bit and give up.
So for all you average guys, just put some tape on your glasses.

If you are a little more inspired, you can fix your gun up in such a way that only the eye lined up with the barrel/rib sees the barrel. There are a number of ways to do that like the XD. You just have to be a bit creative and figure out one and use it. About the only instructor I can think of that actually shoots cross dominant both eyes open is Leon Measures. He has a book and a video that gives some pretty good tips and training. It is all geared to the BB gun. So if you can afford a BB gun and his book or video and then want to put in the time, that might be a good place to start for you, because Leon actually developed the skill personally.

If you are really energetic about it, you can develop both eyes simultaneously and end up being able to shoot for either side all the time, both eyes open. You won't do it instantly though.

 

Also you can change your dominance, but no one really goes to the trouble to do it. I changed mine, so I know from first hand experience how I did it.

Perhaps you should change that to some people can change theirs; as sivert would be able to back up, there are those with certain conditions that will not allow this to happen no matter how hard one tries.
I know I am one. I am anisometropic; that is, the Rx for each eye differs from the other by a large amount. Mine isn't so bad as to cause amblyopia, but enough that there is no way at the age of 57 that I can change my eye dominance, no matter how hard I try. Had my parents been given the option, they could have chosen to allow prescribed prism in my glasses that would have corrected the issue permanently, but it has to be done ASAP as a child. There are other solutions also. Like many other optical conditions, it is caused by a physical error in the eyes, but the brain develops a 'workaround' to the physical issue. In milder anisometropia like mine, the stronger of the two eyes become very dominant. Without attention, this becomes further entrenched in the mind as a workable solution. with more severe anisometropia, the brain will actually refuse the signal coming from the non-dominant eye, resulting in amblyopia. (Lazy eye)
Some enlightening reading about anisometropia;

Things You Need to Know About Anisometropia

What is Anisometropia? Anisometropia is a condition that occurs when your eyes have varying refractive powers, which can cause your eyes to focus unevenly. This condition typically occurs when one eye

youreyesite.com

.

 

I finally CURED my crossfiring. It may not cure yours, but it's free and
easy and can't hurt to try. Rather than close or squint my off eye during
the shot, I keep the off eye closed for the 45 seconds I wait until it's my
turn. Then I mount the gun and ready for the call with the off eye still
closed. When I'm ready, I open both eyes wide, call for the target and
execute the shot with both eyes open. Having been closed for 45 seconds, I
now have full use of the off eye but it does dot interfere during the 0.5 to
0.7 seconds it takes to crush the target. Then I close it again until my
next turn.

Mike Campbell just described a hi-intensity technique,
one I never heard of before. The principle is that he is
making his brain use the off-eye for a very long extended time,
getting the brain focused on the vision from the eye he wants
the brain to use. He did not just use the off-eye for about 3 seconds
every now and then while on the firing line, he was saturating
the vision for an extended period. The BB-gun does that also,
by giving the exercise over and over at about 2 second intervals
while you shoot hundreds shots during a 10 minute session,
repeated day after day. You start off easy, stationary targets,
watch the BB go right into the target, or just off slightly. You
have instant feed back while the shot is happening, you see the
actual BB making its flight, lined up with barrel and the eye
that over the barrel, and you even see it hit or miss the target.
That is high intensity attention of your vision to the barrel,
the target and even the projectile. Doing that over and over
your brain learns, makes the connections that are needed to
solve the problem, and does it over and over, strengthening
all the vision functions.

I suspect that he may have done that for so long now, that he
can actually quit keeping the off-eye closed between shots,
and still the brain has learned to use it during a shot. The
circuits have been built from long practice and use, if I am
right on my guess about this being a permanent skill he has
developed.

Some good hints on this training and building circuits here:

Learning rewires the brain

Brain cells actually change shape as we learn. It’s one way we cement new knowledge. And much of the action happens as we sleep.

www.sciencenewsforstudents.org

Essentially this is what happens when a persons dominance
changes. Typically they develop a problem with the master
eye that degrades vision. Over extended time, with the brain
having to use the images from the other eye to solve the
problems, the nerve routes that are for using that eye are
strengthened while this prolonged stimulus is applied
all day long for hours, and finally the brain makes the
switch to using the other eye as the master. It is extended
time and training going on, making the brain rewire.

And that is not all, if you use both eyes all the time in
your training, train left handed, and train right handed
also, and you have no vision problems with either
eye, you can train the brain/eye cooperation to shoot
ambidextrously, either hand, both eyes open, and your
brain automatically uses the eye lined up with the barrel,
because it has been trained to use the vision picture
that is presented by the eye that is lined up. This takes
saturation training.

If you are not up to that, just use the tape.

 

Matt: do you have an ophthalmology research journal article to confirm "Essentially this is what happens when a persons dominance changes. Typically they develop a problem with the master eye that degrades vision."
Are you referring to visual acuity or visual processing?

Loss of visual acuity in the dominant eye MAY be the cause of shifting (it was not in my case), but the dominant eye is not necessarily the eye with the best visual acuity, but the one with the "best" visual processing. This is very likely the issue with women who are much more likely to need some form of off-eye occlusive but who on formal testing are actually not much more cross-dominant than men.

Visual evoked potentials have shown that dominance is related to the difference in latency (speed of the impulse to the visual cortex) and amplitude (amount of impulse).
http://iosrjournals.org/iosr-jdms/papers/Vol2-issue4/D0241924.pdf

The problem is that "dominance" doesn't really capture all that is going on with binocular vision: there are LOTS of visual processing issues - binocular rivalry, rivalry dominance, stereopsis, motion perception threshold, and lots more I don't understand
Finding the "Master Eye"

I asked a friend who teaches neuro-ophthalmology down the street at Midwestern U. why we switch dominance and he gave me that "you won't understand" look and said "we just do."

 

I really don't have the time to educate everyone on this.
It took me years figuring it out. Everyone can go through
the hints and points I make and they can use them or reject
them. If they use them, they may be able to get to that higher
state of eye use. But they won't, because it is more trouble than
they want to do. That is okay, no one wants anymore trouble
than they can stand.

I will say this. There is a point, I have learned, that dominance
cannot be defeated. That point is at low light levels. Under
low light conditions, in my experience, your brain is going to
use your current dominance, and it will give you problems
when trying to shoot with the wrong eye, with both eyes
open, when the light is near dark. I believe the reason is that,
your central vision is with the cones. That is your central
vision. Central vision (cones) is what your brain uses to solve
precise aiming problems, or precise vision problems for
that matter. Also central vision, your cones, need light,
this is your daytime vision. At night your cones become
almost useless, and then you use the rods, and you also
lose color. At night, now using your rods, your brain
is not using the central vision of your eye, and this is key.
At night your brain is using the rods which are not lined up
with your barrel. The reason cross dominant shooting
fails at low light is, vision concerns what your brain is
wanting to see, and your brain has to want to see something
in order to focus your eyes on it, and this is all at the
reflex level. This is how your brain sorts out the input
from both eyes.

Vision is ACTUALLY HOW YOUR BRAIN PROCESSES
the image from both eyes, NOT HOW GOOD YOUR EYES
ARE. How good your eyes are does effect what the eyes
give to the brain to process. What your brain does with it
is how dominance turns out. That is why you can change
it, you can retrain the brain.

Under Low Light,
your eye right over the barrel lined up with it, only has the
central vision of the eye lined up, AND BRAIN IS NOT USING
THAT CENTRAL VISION OF CONES, so your shooting
with the off-eye goes to hell under low-light conditions and
if your non dominant eye is the one lined up with the barrel
your information to the brain has just went to hell with that
eye because it's central vision which is not working is now
lined up with the barrel. Brain is now using the rods, and
neither eye has rod vision lined up with the barrel. With
neither lined up, the brain cannot now see the pattern it wants,
so defaults to dominant vision, and that is the off-eye,
if you are shooting cross dominant.

Maybe that low light argument says that not only should
you switch your dominance if cross dominant, but it also
says shooting at night is a lot tougher, I think we all knew
that already. Also if it says that cross dominant shooters
should change their dominance for best performance
in low light it makes their problem harder than just becoming
proficient using the off-eye while shooting. Changing your
dominance requires some further training and measures,
and I am not going there, the subject is too complex and
my fingers are not up to all that much typing.

Also changing your dominance is something no one I have
ever known has chosen to do as a project. Clearly, that is
something people just don't pursue, at least in my experience.

 

----------------------------------------------------------

I don't like the implication that I am somehow weak or
inferior because I haven't done so.

If people don't like the implication that
they are weak (unable) to do something, then
maybe they should not make the implication to
themselves that they are unable like here.

My brain reverts to the dominant eye whenever I open it.
I cannot 'train' my brain to accept the right eye's data
unless the left eye is shut, when there is something
(my gun barrel) between them and the target

-------------------------------------------------------------------
Age:
One thing I wonder about is age, but I am pretty
sure no one knows the answer. I am pretty sure
everyone is GUESSING when it comes to age and
what the brain can do. My reason is that most
dominance switches, I am GUESSING, happens in older
folks who develop eye problems with age. Also
most folks that have strokes and the brain has to
reprogram things are old. For these reasons, I
think no one can make any accurate calls as to
how a brain is able to learn or relearn with age.

Again not everyone can. The brain loses some plasticity
with age no matter how much one does to retain or grow it,
though working at it does help. For those who don't work
at it, the phrase "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" can apply.

I interpret that as somewhat double talk, because it
advocates opposite outcomes in the same argument.
(1)brain loses some plasticity with age
no matter how much one does to retain or grow it
NOW THE OPPOSITE:
(2)though working at it does help

It is always better to take both sides of any
argument, because it doubles your chance of
being correct. It is also called double talk.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Actual experience:
One of my experiences reinforces my thinking
about this age subject, was I some sort of a
miracle? I switched my dominance at a fairly old
age. I was somewhere between 65 and 70. I can't
pinpoint it right now, am about mid 80s, so it
was a long time ago. I can only get close because
it was after I retired and before my wife died.

Everyone has their guesses. In my guesses here,
it was all brought on by actual fact that I experienced.
So, I was not guessing. Still not everyone is the
same. Everyone has different levels of what they
are willing to expend in effort and also how their
individual brain is wired. No one can really
predict with accuracy either one of these factors.
That, in my opinion, is why the subject is not
able to be agreed upon, and will be subject to
endless discussions like this.

The only thing I can say for sure to someone
who believes he cannot change his dominance
is this. If you ever have to do eye surgery
to correct a situation, then do it this way,
if you want to change your dominance.
(1) Have the eye corrected that you want to
be the master FIRST.
(2) Don't do the 2nd eye until you have given
a lot time for the brain to be stimulated to
make the connections to use the new eye with
good information.
(3) While you are in that transition period
waiting to do the second, if you do a lot
of training that I described before, I believe
there is a good chance your brain will switch
over.
(4) One factor that could work against this
happening is if the uncorrected EYE is near
sighted, because your brain is going to like
that one on things up closer and will be using
it all the time and have less stimulation to
change. If your uncorrected eye is far sighted
then your brain is going to have maximum stimulus
to want to use the newly corrected one.

 

(1) Have the eye corrected that you want to
be the master FIRST.

Are you and OD, or an MD? (Opthalmologist, that is, not a General Practitioner)
And how do you define 'corrected'?

(2) Don't do the 2nd eye until you have given
a lot time for the brain to be stimulated to
make the connections to use the new eye with
good information.

It sounds here like you are talking about cataract surgery. At your age, there is about an 80% probability that you have had it. If so, good for you. I can't wait to have it done, but as I am 57 and have protected my eyes all my life (well, since seven) with Photogrey, and then polycarbonate lenses. I probably won't need IOL's until my 80's. What was your Rx before the cataract surgery? Did you have astigmatic myopia compounded by ansiometropia? Did you use Jedi mind tricks to change your dominant eye before your IOL's, or did you follow your advice and wait until after the first surgery, when most if not all of your refractive errors (except presbyopia) were corrected for that eye?

Because if you haven't tried to change your dominant eye when up against all the above refractive errors (and you have already proven to me that you know little about optics), then your individual anecdotal experience is just that. It worked for you, great. IT WILL NOT WORK FOR EVERYONE! I am one of those. There are some things that are just not possible. Peter Dinklage will never be the center for the Chicago Bulls. There is one way I can make my right eye my dominant eye, but it involves putting out my left eye, some I am not willing to do, particularly because I don't perceive having my left eye as my dominant eye as a major issue in my life. I have the choice of shooting certain styles with my left eye closed, or shooting off my left shoulder, which I occasionally do, even in Trap. I just can't do so with my Ljutic, because of the stock cast.

(3) While you are in that transition period
waiting to do the second, if you do a lot
of training that I described before, I believe
there is a good chance your brain will switch
over.

What if the eye that needs cataract surgery first is the one you don't want to switch to? It will be an exercise in futility.

(4) One factor that could work against this
happening is if the uncorrected EYE is near
sighted, because your brain is going to like
that one on things up closer and will be using
it all the time and have less stimulation to
change. If your uncorrected eye is far sighted
then your brain is going to have maximum stimulus
to want to use the newly corrected one.

This is the one thing you have said that is factual. Those with simple hyperopia will have an easier time switching dominant eyes. Only emmetropes will have it easier. Myopia is a strike against switching. Astigmatism, if it differs by more than 3 diopters, is a strike against switching. Anisometropia is a strike against switching. These, plus over 40 years of wing/clay shooting right eyed while being a compound myope with anisometropia, make the probability of me successfully switching eye dominance about the same as Peter Dinklage donning a Bulls jersey and facing off with Karl-Anthony Townes successfully. (Timberwolves center, 6'11".)

Your continued posts are akin to Jennifer Anniston calling a morbidly obese person, who is that way because of gladular issues, "fatty fatty. two by four". You can't see what I'm talking about when I say there ARE people for whom your method to change eye dominance will not work, because your zealotry for the method won't let you. I however have agreed with you that there are people, many of them, who can use your method to change eye dominance, and encourage those who want to try it to do so.

You may beat Rick Barker for oldest troll on TS.com!