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Drew Hause

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Discussion starter · #1 · (Edited)
"DDT Test For Smokeless Powders"
Journal of the Japan Explosives Society (Kayaku Gakkaishi), Vol. 63, No. 5, 2002, p. 282
Research Center for Explosion Safety, National Institute for Advanced Industrial Science and Technology (AIST)
http://www.researchgate.net/profile...ion/262559013_DDT_test_for_smokeless_powders/links/00b7d537f6a6357098000000.pdf

The point of the study was to identify powders at risk for DDT. The powder was in a 50 cm G3454 carbon steel tube with an ID of 50mm and a wall thickness of 5.5 mm, surrounded by water. Black powder was used as the fuse head. Obviously NOT a shotgun shell.

"Of 58 types of smokeless powder...26 were found to detonate under the present DDT test conditions."

"...it was found that propellants with a high possibility of detonation can be identified with reasonable confidence...This result is expected to contributed significantly to safety research."
 
I see nothing in that research and testing that even comes close to a modern plastic hulled shotshell with plastic wad on top. Nothing.....

A steel tube, with no means for pressure escape, with one end suitable for an ignition system, using 10 grains of black powder and a type of fuse head as an igniter???
Good grief.......

When you find anything, ANY proof and documentation regarding modern shotshell detonation, post it.
 
50mm is 2 inches. A far cry from a 12ga barrel. I have read of detonation in large naval guns and that is what this is approaching.

They are determining detonation by examining the resulting damage. Shouldn't that be obvious after examining a "detonated" shotgun? It is either being hidden or it isn't happening.

I would doubt that something of this magnitude could be hidden for long.
 
Discussion starter · #5 · (Edited)
http://www.interfire.org/res_file/def_det.asp
"Double-base smokeless powders (containing nitroglycerine) [ie. Alliant Green Dot & Red Dot]...can detonate under some conditions."

Smokeless Powder & Detonation
https://www.thevespiary.org/rhodium/Rhodium/www.roguesci.org/archive/index.php/t-2481.html

SPS (Secondary Pressure Spike)???
http://www.reloadersnest.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=6288&whichpage=2

A contributor suggested (on one of these endless threads) that possibly the double-based ball powders discontinued by Winchester-Olin may have been identified as at risk of detonation??

Will Rogers - "All I know is just what I read in the papers, and that's an alibi for my ignorance."

I'm really not that interested in all of this and will be moving on now. Those who wish to take exception to "what I read in the papers" might do their own d#%m! homework, or as suggested discuss their thoughts with a ballistic engineer. We await your report, and real names.
 
Well, I did see one 452AA user blow up a K-80. He did send in his PW reloader for repairs once and it looked like it was covered in snow-452AA snow. His top latch ended up in the parking lot on the PSSA grounds!!
 
Discussion starter · #11 ·
You are most welcome Borderland. Just wondering why this is happening, and have been willing to invest time and some of my money into the research. Possibly you could contribute something meaningful to the discussion, starting with your real name.

C.H. Spurgeon
It is said that wise men wonder only once, and that is always; fools never wonder, because they are fools.
 
Discussion starter · #17 · (Edited)
Thought I'd update this thread rather than post on the current 1100 Blow Up thread
https://www.trapshooters.com/threads/1100-went-boom.786269/

Light load detonation
"When Bad Things Happen To Good Guns", November 1996 Guns magazine, Charles E. Petty. (p. 43) - I couldn't find the article digitized
Light Loads can Explode Page

M.L. (Mic) McPherson, Metallic Cartridge Reloading, 1996
Detonation: What can happen when, for whatever reason, the primer flash delivers insufficient hear to ignite enough of the propellant charge to create a self-sustaining reaction. If too little propellant initially ignites, either the bullet will never move and too little heat will exist to cause the rapid ignition of additional granules or, as the bullet initially accelerate, adiabatic cooling can reduce resulting gas temperature enough to prevent the rapid ignition of additional granules. In the former instance, the unignited propellant, which is melted into a very dense clump at the front of the case, can cook for a period before it subsequently ignites. In the latter instance, as pressure drops, the bullet can slow and even stop within the bore. Again, the unignited granules can subsequently ignite.
In either instance, if the initially unignited mass does ignite eventually, a standing-pressure-wave will result. If subsequent bullet acceleration and propellant burning have an unfortunate coincidence of rates (which is fundamentally likely), pressure near the peak of the standing wave will reach a gun-destroying level. This is not some esoteric theory: The Krupp commission proved this in 1888 and all too many others have demonstrated this many times since. I have seen three rifles destroyed by this process.


2008 study regarding the risk of smokeless powder use in IED
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=27&ved=0ahUKEwj8k4jEpI3cAhUhxVQKHYHwDvQ4FBAWCD4wBg&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dtic.mil%2Fcgi-bin%2FGetTRDoc%3FLocation%3DU2%26doc%3DGetTRDoc.pdf%26AD%3DADA491715&usg=AOvVaw2uok3rqoZZnd6FzCtlAdaC
“The test results validate a fundamental distinction between the manner in which smokeless powder is designed to react (deflagrate) to a given stimuli (ammunition primer) and the manner in which it is capable of reacting (detonating) to unintended stimuli (detonator).”
p. 17
In March of 1943 a chemistry professor at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology named Tenney L. Davis published The Chemistry of Powders and Explosives...as a textbook for chemistry and chemical engineering graduate students at MIT. The following excerpt is taken from page 4 of the book:
“...classes of explosives materials overlap somewhat, for the behavior of a number of them is determined by the nature of the stimuli to which there are subjected and by the manner in which they are used. Black powder has probably never been known, even in the hideous explosions which have occurred at black powder mills, to do anything but burn.
Smokeless powder which is made from colloided nitrocellulose, especially if it exists in a state of fine subdivision, is a vigorous high explosive and may be detonated by means of a sufficiently powerful initiator.”
The author sites a 1988 Canadian study in Mining Resource Engineering, “The Deflagration to Detonation of Transition of Gun and Small Arms Propellants”
“Most propellants will detonate when suitably initiated by an explosive source.”

https://www.nrcan.gc.ca/explosives/acquisition-storage-sale/9829 2017
Smokeless Powder is a single-based or double-based colloidal nitrocellulose mixture. These nitrocellulose mixtures are extremely flammable and can deflagrate easily under normal conditions. Under specific conditions, smokeless powder can detonate.

However
, all the articles and youtubes of smokeless powder detonation require a Detonator; usually Black Powder and/or a commercial Plain Detonator No. 8

SO - as said previously, smokeless shotgun powders CAN, under experimental conditions or with the use of a detonator, be made to detonate.

I have seen no article documenting detonation using shotgun primers or in a shotshell.

As also said previously, anyone is most welcome to post links to articles or references to the contrary.
 
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Discussion starter · #18 ·
Bumped for Howard and everyone else who keeps repeating the same thing, which they are most free to do. There really is no reason for controversy or confusion, until/unless a study is published documenting shotshell detonation.
 
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