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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
In air rifle shooting they have discussed and proved that an "Artillery" hold improves the accuracy of some air rifles for better scores. With this Artillery hold, the gun is held rather losely and allowed to recoil freely while being shot. Also most airguns need a longer hold time because of their long lock time. Spring powered airguns have recoil and vibration which can and does affect their accuracy. Cannons have alot of recoil and the barrel travels backwards with recoil as the projectile moves out, yet with all this movement they are very accurate.

Therefore would/could trap scores improve if the shooter held the gun loosely rather than locking the gun into the shoulder very tight? Which do you think is better, a tight or a loose hold? Biff
 

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I do believe that this is the first time I've heard the words "cannon" and "accurate" used in the same sentence.

Please define for us what you mean by accurate?
 

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Don't think I want to give my gun a running head start to hit me in the shoulder. But then I'm a BIG CHICKEN. Ross Puls
 

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A weak relaxed hold makes for difficulty on the second shot in doubles. Too much stock/gun movement away from the eyes. I prefer a firm grasp and grip pulling the pad into my shoulder pocket to become one with my shotgun. I think tank turret rather than a loose cannon? :) I can shoot like both at times though.

Hap
 

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I vote for firm tight to the shoulder, cheek, firm hand on grip. To do otherwise seems counterintuitive. When I first started shooting, with the the old 870, it would let me know, in no uncertain terms, that it wanted to be quite snug to the shoulder, or it would try to kick it off...
Now as for the "Artillery" hold as an innovation to improve "Trap scores," I am not sure the two disciplines are compatible. Shooting an air gun at a fixed target vs, a 12 gauge at rising, moving target, is just too different to have any meaningful value to trap. And with the thousands of shooters who shoot thousands of shells, at practice and clinics, surely the "Artillery hold" would have caught on and be the latest rage. Also, our terminology is so subjective, it is difficult to really say what is a "firm" hold or "loose" hold. I know what is firm to me, but I don't see how anyone watching me could tell one from the other.
I really admire your willingness to "think out of the box." And try new things.
Take care.
 

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<EM>"Artillery Hold"</em>......now that's a good one....ROFLMAO.....Who the hell dreamt that up......some ones snort-in too much crack again
 

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I hold the gun very firmly, perhaps tight, with both hands and keep it very tight against my shoulder. This provides the best gun control for me. An added advantage of a tight grip with both hands is that the hands and arms will absorb quite a bit of recoil.

Pat Ireland
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
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Rastoff, have you ever heard of a German "88" used during WWll?

221, I won't ask nor tell who left your cage door open, but have you ever contributed a positive comment on here? I was reading the airgun newsletter by Tom Gaylord the airgun Guru on the Pyramid Air web site and he was talking about a looser hold for better accuracy with airguns. He was the person that coined the word "Artillery" hold. No, it has nothing to do nor mentions trap shooting, but it piqued my interest as to whether this technique might apply to shooting shotguns.

I was not thinking of so loose of a hold of a shotgun where you would come out of a gun during the move to the target, but possibly a less rigid grip in controlling rearward recoil. I feel it is sometimes good to throw a thought out and give some of the shooters something to think about in their quest to improve their ability to break targets and yes when I shoot some targets in the future I will definitely vary some of my gun mounted holds.

I don't profess know much about trap or even be a good shooter anywhere like Phil,Ray,Leo or Harlan, but they got there through a route of experimentation, thoughts, and hard work. You will never know what your potential is for shooting if you never challenge yourself to be better than you are now!Biff
 

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No I haven't heard of a German "88", but that's not really the point. Usually, artillery accuracy is measured in "ball park" terms. This makes sense when you're talking about the immense ranges used with artillery.

So, a cannon that puts a shell within a few feet of a target is really accurate for a cannon. The precision necessary for a shotgun is much tighter. Sure, the shotgun is not as accurate as a bench rest rifle, but it certainly requires more accuracy than a giant piece of artillery.

Further, they are two completely different platforms. Even though the barrel will move backward with the recoil, the gun itself is held very rigidly.

I agree with the idea of exchanging ideas. I think it was a good idea to open this up for discussion. I wasn't making fun of your original post. I just don't think this idea of holding the gun loosely will promote better scores. It may work for the odd man out, but not for most.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
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Yoda, I think you are absolutely right about doubles, glad you pointed that out.

ctreay, Browning made a recoilless shotgun where the barrel travelled forward when fired to counteract the recoil, but I think the slow lock time interferred with it making a great trap gun.

Rastoff, I didn't take it as anything other than discussion. I actually plan to petition the ATA next year to make it legal for the Senior Vet Class if they choose to use the "Artillery" method that they can then be placed on cassions, dollies, or stood in a shopping cart when they go to the line to shoot their events. That way the recoil would be somewhat negated and would place their shots within the ballpark of where the target flies! Biff
 

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Biff you must forgive young Rastoff as he is ignorant of the fact we fought a war with the Germans in the 40's. It is quite possible that a modified version of the so called "artillery hold" might work in trap.

If trapshooting was an exactness then all you would need would be 4 BB's. No you throw over 350 BB's at the target covering an area where the bird is flying. Sounds a little bit like artillery putting a round into an area and causing damage in a larger area around it. So Rastoff don't be so quick to knock the Biffster and write him off as a know not, he was merely posing a what if. When you have shot as many targets as he then you can lecture him.

Don
 

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Sigh.

Artillery isn't "loose". It merely has a recoil reduction system. How that relates to grip I don't understand at all.

Most artillery pieces have trails that are dug into the ground to "firm" the base so the piece (cannon + parts) doesn't move when fired (except for the recoil reduction system).
 
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