I see the same people running down the Waukesha gun club! What they don't realize is that W.G.C. is our best shot at a place to hold a State Shoot until we get our homegrounds!! And ,, until YOU are ready to contribute enough to support a homegrounds,not only in cash but in help, we are not going to have a homegrounds!! The W.T.A. Board has scoured the state looking for a place to build and has been met with a ""not in MY backyard" attitude everywhere they have gone.
Waukesha and W.T.A has shown that the Shoot can be held on the present grounds very well!! And be finished at a reasonable time. Was last year quite nicely!
Maybe , John Q and Gunner you could quit running your mouth and start running your hands,, like my Father used to tell me when there was work to do. I'm sure that your offer to help the club would be welcomed,, and the W.T.A. will be glad to have your input at any of the meetings, if you have anything worthwhile to say!! Paul
Why did this thread get started?? It has been asked as a topic to BEGIN a DISCUSSION on the WTA website yet someone feels the need to bring it here? Don't waste David's bandwidth on this! If you feel strongly about it, post your thoughts on the WTA site. The only problem is you have to use your real name there.
Wait, maybe that explains why there's a thread here....
For the WTA to willingly hang the albatross of Waukesha on its neck would be suicide.
Suddenly the WTA would be in the skeet and 5 stand business, and also be looking at an urban sprawl expansion monster drooling at the thought of gobbling up the land. The grapevine has had WGC shrinking to half size for years, becuse of the crushing tax burden.
I have never read the WTA Constitution or by-laws, so someone that has should tell me what the "defined purpose" of the WTA is. The wording is important. It may be that it can't be done for legal reasons.
Some of you folks need to read Gries' and others posts more carefully on the WTA website.There is no talk of bailing out the WGC. There is no talk of bailing out the WTA. There is talk of providing equipment on the WGC grounds that will enhance and improve the state shoot. This is easily affordable by the WTA, whereas a homegrounds is not and will not be. Everything provided by the WTA will be owned by WTA and will removable and resellable should it be necessary.
Talking about the past is yesterday's newspaper and has no bearing on the present. Let the shooters of Wisconsin have their own input into this suggestion and they have the WTA website to do so. It will be up to the shooters to push these two organizations together, work out a win-win and get it done...
I have read this post and wondered if there are two Waukesha Gun Clubs?!?!
I was at the club on Saturday December 16th for a sporting clays shoot. While enjoying the good company and Christmas cheer, I noticed the monthly financial statement placed for all the world to see. Seems that they have had a HUGE turnaround based on the 2005 vs. 2006 November financials. And.. they had 113 people show up to shoot a registered sporting clays event!!
Prices weren't bad compared to other places, and not as good as others, so what is so terrible?
Talked with one of the mangement of the club, and they are handling their tax issues nicely, they are growing clay target sports and looks like the membership is up. So when you say things are headed south there, are you referring to the entire operation or one particular piece of the operation?
What is so bad about clubs diversifying their efforts? The club has also added a bar, that contributes positively to the bottom line as clearly visible on the financials.
Take a second look. This is a nice place to shoot, and great people to shoot with.
To date, there is no concrete evidence of any merger of the WTA & WGC, only the
half-ass speculation that this is something coming. The idea is a very practical one, which could benefit both entities. The WGC could use an influx
of capital - the WTA could provide that. The WGC property is quite adequate to meet the needs of our state shoot for the present, and forseeable future. Of course the property needs significant improvements to become a 1st class operation. The club throws DAMM FINE targets and the management is sincerely trying to make the best of what they have. IF this club was to cease operations, trapshooting in WI would be in sad shape. We would be shooting the state shoot telephonically, or in IL or IA, or perhaps NOT AT ALL.
Before you begin badmouthing either WGC or WTA regarding this possibility, let's first listen to some proposal for a merger. To date we have nothing to consider, so let's cut out the speculation, and wait for something to develop!!
This discussion was started on the WTA website at the request of a WTA member, which I did not feel was out of line. Open dialogue is good and it gives us an idea as to the thoughts of our shooting members. There is absolutly no merger being considered as of this date, it was started strictly to open dialogue get thoughts from membership.
I started the thread for reasons stated above, and because I serve the membership and if I get a request I don't feel is out of line and appropriate, I will try my best to honor that request.
Your always going to have the naysayers who are the first to put down any ideas but have none of their own. What Dick Otto has suggested makes financial sense for both entities. Our state shoot lost approximately 8.2% in shooters and 5.4% the year before. Registered shooting is continually declining nation-wide except in Pennsylvannia, Ohio and Missouri. In most cases, its simple economics ( it cost more to shoot now days) add on to that cost of travel, lodging etc and it has become an expensive sport/hobby! Personally, I can attest to this because, I shoot the Southern Grand annually and it costs me more money every year.
Jim-kneecricket, if you don't like the cost of shooting or shooting at WGC, do you really believe having our own Homegrounds would be cheaper? It would not..in fact it would be more expensive! The cost of borrowing money has went up over the last five years and our shooting season is about five months at best. We do not have the same luxury as shooters in Florida and Arizona have! By Sept 15th Bow hunting season takes over,and turkey, then deer etc, etc etc. Shooting really doesn't get started again until mid-April and or May.
If you read Trap & Field our sister state Michigan jsut cancelled their 2007 Fall Handicap to lack of shooter participation. All clubs must be able to make money to run. What all the WGC haters forget..is that Waukesha has some very expensive land they could sell. They could sell off parts of the land and make enough money to re-configure and re-build with money in the bank for years to come. If WGC ever goes down that road, what options would the WTA have? They have the land in Oshkosh? We all know the story on that now? Forced to find a Homeground in Wisc. They have tried that for 20 plus years now and still we have no site. You can't blame the WTA directors for lack of effort they have scoured the state high and low and have run into nothing but empty promises from a State Government, Governor and a DNR who will not support a shooting complex in this state, pure and simple! We can't even get conceal carry passed in this state, why do you think our current state government would help us find and or fund a shooting complex or Homeground? What other options does the WTA have? Move the shoot to Iowa and or Illinois? Currently were the 5th largest shoot in the country, if we move the shoot out of state, it will no longer be the Wisconsin State Shoot as we know it. I'm afraid if we go that route our registered shooting as we know it will simply dwindle away. So what other options do we have if we don't "CONSIDER" a merger?
Instead of running down new ideas in a possible merger between WGC and the WTA why don't some of you find a new Homeground site and propose a funding mechanism that will provide cheaper shooting! I'm sure the WTA and the shooters in the state of Wisconsin would appreciate it, I know I would. Thanks
Mr.Hooptied, I appreciate your candor and your partially correct. I am in favor of a merger for the entities. And I consider myself a good member of WGC and Boxhorn. Where you are incorrect is to assume that I am "not" in favor of a Homegrounds. Actually, I support a Homeground for the WTA and a reduction in the size of WGC. I've stated this postion over the internet and directly to many of the directors of both entities. WGC could easily sell off a portion of their land and re-design the entire club grounds with money still in the bank. That can not be said of the WTA!
Acutally, if you go back to the last Trap & Field you will see that Wisconsin has re-captured being the 5th largest shoot again, after PA, OH, MO and IA. But remember we are once again the 5th largest shoot even after our shoot numbers are down 8.2% Like it or not we are in a sport that is being effected by shootings costs ( targets, shells), travel, food etc.
Unfortunately, what concerns me is that many of the shooters in the state including yourself are not grasping the real political and financial costs of building a Homeground. My comments are not a "slam" against the WTA! No sane person could fault this group for the sins of the past. They have looked all over the central part of the state to find a suitable grounds and that has not been achieve! You have a state government and a Governor that will not support a shooting complex or assist us with a Homeground.
Hoptied, it also must be recognized in that if we do not have a financial benefactor willing to donate a large sum of money the concept of borrowing money in todays terms to build a Homeground makes absolutely no financial sense! How would we support it? How many people would be willing to travel and then pay higher prices than we do now? With the cost of shooting already continuing to rise what do you think it would cost to shoot at our new Homeground? Were already in the top 10% in state shooting costs nationally!
Something else to think about; why should WGC consider a temporary year to year partnership? Whats in it for them? There not their to support the WTA or so the WTA can catch its breath in finding a Homeground. We already know that the WGC can run a successful state shoot because they proved it the last two years. In fact both entities actually made money! As far as club taxes go the club came up with solutions on the tax issue and that the actual tax cost will decrease between 20 to 25% thanks to some very sharp businessman that sit on the board! As far as me traveling to the central part of the state it would be no problem. I shoot in FL, IL, MI, AZ, ND and CA. So traveling 2 hrs north is not an inconvenience for me! But mortgaging our association away for a pipe dream is an inconvenience for me!
You may not trust WGC and that is your perogative! It's shooters like you that have continued to run WGC club down but still do not bring anything to the table to assist the WTA and or the Homeground issue. Thanks
P.S. If your going to respond back on my comments at least have the courtesy to state your name. Thanks
As I am reading these posts, and trying to form my opinion one way or the other, one question comes to mind. Are my past and future daily fees going to be used in this merger? I would have to say yes. If the WTA puts in a lot of money to improve WGC, who is going to benefit most? I am thinking the shooters that use WGC on a regular basis. If I live hours away and only use the facility 2-3 days a year, I do not want my money used to support the members of a different club. Unless WGC members want to send money to my club, I don't want to give them any.
I am just worried that a huge chunk of the WTA money will be spent at Waukesha, and that will not benefit the majority of shooters in Wisconsin. Also, what happens if the money gets stuck into Waukesha and they can no longer stay open for a variety of reasons? That might really tie the hands of the WTA. I am not 100% against the idea, but just trying to bring up some of my concerns. I see nothing wrong with that being a member of the WTA.
Boots, shooters at WGC use four pat traps for their daily use. Everything, else installed or built would be used for large shoots ( Zone shoots, Five Man and State Shoot) which shooters from all over the state participate. Maybe, we could have a Spring and Fall Handicap Shoot? Possibly even bid on the Great Lakes Grand. We already have a large site in place ..why try to re-invent the wheel?
Cc: Hooptied, hopefully your right and patient! I recently spoke to a WTA bod who told me they have done eveything humanly possible to find a location and it is simply not their. Like it or not the talk of merger is going to happen.
Rick, whoever this "BOD" person was that you spoke to was 100% incorrect. We have not done everything that is humanly possible. At times it feels like we have, but we have some pretty promising opportunities that we are working on right now that involve state and regional government entities. However, due to the time of year we are currently at, there's not a whole lot of government work going on. We will be having some meetings with officials from those entities after the first of the year, though.
I have personally kept my nose out of this discussion because there are too many unknowns yet, but I feel that the misinformation is getting out of hand, so I want to clear a few more things up:
1. Discussions with government entities have not been fruitless...they have provided some promising solutions for us that we are currently working towards.
2. The WTA and WGC have NOT discussed a merger, nor has a formal merger proposal been presented to either the WTA or WGC boards.
3. The relationship between WGC and the WTA is not "strained" right now...in fact, it is very good. Pat Gerbensky from WGC has been great to work with so far, and we look forward to working with him in this upcoming year.
4. The WTA BOD will not leave WGC hanging out to dry, nor will it allow itself to be forced into a position that could be detrimental to the organization. Any decisions made about the WTA, WGC (or any other gun club), or the homegrounds will be handled with utmost sensitivity to the impacts on all three.
5. The DNR will never donate a piece of land to the WTA because the DNR acquires land only when there is a specific need to acquire it for conservation reasons. A world-class trap range would not be something that is considered to be used for conservation reasons. They also won't own a shooting range (like the IDNR does in Sparta) because they already own one (which they lease to Wern Valley), and it has been an ecological disaster for them due to some poor planning in the past. Because of this, they have a sour taste for shooting range ownership.
6. The DNR doesn't have "henchmen" that are trying to thwart our plans to build a shooting facility. They actually are in support of it, they just can't give us land due to their current policies in effect.
If there are more facts that I have missed that you would like more information about, please e-mail me because I don't come on to TS.com very often.
I also want to quickly share a few thoughts that I have about this whole WTA/WGC merger idea and it's relation to a homegrounds solution. I personally feel that the best thing for both the WTA and WGC would be for the WTA to enter into a 3-5 year agreement with Waukesha, maybe giving a little money for some rennovations and upgrades to WGC while we try to finalize this homegrounds thing. We could have deadlines built into the agreement that force us to assess our situation and allow us to renegotiate the agreement if a homegrounds has not been secured yet. Then, when we secure our land and begin to build our club, we can give WGC an exit date that would allow them to sell off whatever portions of their club they need in order to operate more efficiently. I think even if Waukesha were to sell off a good portion of their property, they would still be the second largest club in the state, and could still hold shoots like the 5-man (maybe on 12 or 16 fields with all PATs????). A club like WGC with 12 or 16 traps (that's assuming WGC keeps that many) would be a great compliment to a homegrounds with 30-40 traps. Granted, this is all assuming a lot from WGC, but this is just my feeling about the whole thing.
Rick Brohmer asked "why try to re-invent the wheel?", and to that I say this: We're not trying to re-invent another Waukesha Gun Club...we're trying to create a place that can meet all of the expected and unexpected things our sport may face. Waukesha used to be the place that mitigated all of that risk for us, but there are too many factors at play there now, and a new club would have less risks (once it's built) and guarantee our sport's existence for at least another 50-75 years.
Once again, I don't come to TS.com very often, so if you have any comments for me, please e-mail them to me at [email protected]
Absolutely GREAT POSTING, Dan!! I hope that this will put to rest all the
WTA/WGC bashing & other misc. B/S that this thread has created. Both entities are trying their utmost to have something that is beneficial to the two entieies and also our trapshooters. Let's cut the bashing and let things "shake out"!! An workable agreement beween these two parties is well within the realm of possibility..
I'm not shooting much ATA lately so I don't really have a dog in this fight anymore....but seems to me that everyone is ignoring the fact that at WGC sporting clays and 5-Stand seems to be paying the bills. The health of the WGC doesn't depend on trap or the state trap shoot. I believe trap will always be important to the club (as will skeet) but sporties will be increasingly more important. This should be interpreted as a very good thing. It will mean that the WGC will gradually improve it's finances. The 2009 Wisconsin sporting clays championship will be held at WGC. This will mean that the grounds will be fixed up, parking and camping areas will probably be improved and many other improvements made that will also help the trapshooters. Much of what people worry about could be fixed by 2009.
I say, trust Pat and the WGC, invest in traps and trap fields at WGC and forget about a homegrounds.
People worry about how we can afford to spend 1 or 2 million on a homegrounds. I personally don't think we could afford a FREE homegrounds in the middle of the state. Taxes, insurance, maintenance, a manager, etc, etc, etc would be far more than we would make on 3 or 4 shoots per year. And it would be folly to try to run a year round gun club on the homegrounds. Then we would really lose money as well as irritate the existing local clubs.
Again, trust Pat and the WGC. Work out an agreement that protects everybody.