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Discussion Starter #1
I’m sort of new to Trap shooting (<3 years) and I truly enjoy shooting in a number of leagues. The other day I was at Rural SC and asked a few folks and got some answers but I was wondering what the thinking behind the rule is from people who have lots more experience. So on a Monday afternoon with no place to shoot I’m asking the question “why not count the scores for more than the top 5 when establishing weekly TEAM winners in a league?”
In Eastern PA I’m familiar with 3 leagues (InterValley, Montg Co Federation, Lehigh Valley) that count only the highest 5 scores to determine TEAM winners/standings each week. Why not 8 or 10 to increase the feeling of contribution to a wider TEAM audience? I realize its been like this for years and probably for good reason, but I was just wondering….
Mario.
 

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We count 5 because that's how many shooters our team puts on the line. We can have subs, up to 3 but when a team shoots it's our 5 scores against the other team's 5.

HM
 

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To clear up your club is shooting against the other clubs in the league. They take the top 5 high scores and add those 5 scores together to get the high scoring team for that week or night. Those scores are matched against all the teams in the league to arrive at a standing, highest target count is high and so on.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
"To clear up your club is shooting against the other clubs in the league. They take the top 5 high scores and add those 5 scores together to get the high scoring team for that week or night. Those scores are matched against all the teams in the league to arrive at a standing, highest target count is high and so on."

That is correct.
 

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You team may have 7 but my team only has 5. So you would lose one whole team due to not being able to field 7 scores.
 

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If you are familiar with Mont Co. Fed League you know that they only count the top 5 scores as well. Some leagues struggle to get 5 shooters each week. I think the rational is that 5 shooters on the line. I know I personally feel good when one of my scores count. I'm pretty sure we don't need to water it down so everyone feels like they contributed. These falls in line with todays philoshy that everyone deserves a medal or a trophy. I know I work hard to shoot better and when I have a good score I want to feel like it was a true accomplishment.
 

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Mario in QT, just think how much sweeter it'll feel when you finally break that first counting score. Understandably, there was a time years ago when all scores shot that day were printed in the local newspaper. Those were the days with 7-800 shooters shooting league and getting serious abuse from your colleagues after breaking that 16/25. Keep at it and you'll be there!!
 

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Mario,

Bucks Co league also counts 5 scores but the score is the total number of targets broken and it's a rolling total for the duration of the league. If a club fails to have 5 shooters then the entire club gets a zero but the individual scores still count.

Hope to see you Wednesday.

Jonathan
 

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Discussion Starter #9
"These falls in line with todays philoshy that everyone deserves a medal or a trophy. I know I work hard to shoot better and when I have a good score I want to feel like it was a true accomplishment."

I hear you, used this line myself. BUT
I'm thinking if all teams have at least 20 shooters why not count 8 or 10. This past Sunday we had only 88 shooters out of 157 come out for the MONTCO Federation League. Weather was decent. Usual average is over 100. Are those not shooting as well as the top 5 finding something else to do as the season winds down???

@oleolliedawg...The 16/25 shooters are the folks I would want to encourage to keep coming out because that score of 21 or 22 might be much closer than the 24 or 25.
 

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The number of scores to count depends on many factors. Number of shoots in a season, number of shooters, are there limits on team membership, 25 or 50 birds, winter or summer, etc. Frankly too many factors to offer a clear vision of how it should be done.

There is one overriding factor....the key is maintaining a balance and keeping the league as competitive as necessary to ensure attendance remains as high as possible. Then everybody wins.

Here is the answer you seek: You need to count as many scores as necessary so that a degree of separation occurs between the team scores.....you should count as few scores as possible so that degree of separation remains small enough that your league remains as competitive as possible.

The Lehigh Valley League is a 25 bird League that has been in existence without team member limits for over 60 years. We count the top five scores per team. When our league had 830 members, we only counted five per team. There have only been three perfect seasons by a team in sixty years. It took 30 years for the first perfect season to happen.

The last thing you want is for a shooter to decide that their attendance is not necessary - perhaps because their team is out of the competition. The shooters scores should count both for their team and individually for themselves. Besides team and individual awards, we offer a High Team Average trophy where every target is counted and divided by the number of record rounds shot in the season. In the seven year history of this trophy, it has never been won by the team that has won the League Championship.

In this game of perfection, you need to reward perfection. By counting too many scores on bad winter days you do not accomplish this goal. Lastly, shooters need to recognized for their participation as much as their achievements. Our League offers six randomly drawn perfect attendance awards. Most clubs reward the shooters who make a requisite number of shoots during the year...some return dues money, some defray the cost of a banquet ticket or provide a free ticket and some reward their shooters in other ways. It is all about and only about getting shooters to attend your events. You must ensure that your attendance supports your advertised prize structure.

Hope this helps answer your question.

Play Dead
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Thanks PlayDead. Very informative post.

Your High Team Average Trophy is a very good idea. This is the sort of item which should encourage Team support for those shooters that have that 16/17 average. They know that if they shoot a 20 instead of their usual 16 or 17 they will contribute to the team average. I would think this would encourage them to keep coming out and improve their scores. On the other hand, if only the best shooters can contribute by the end of the season they may be inclined to go to some other function on Sunday.
 

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Well,the Penmar League here in Chester County and Lancaster County uses the top 10 scores. Now I do need to say this is a League where three Clubs compete,there actually are No teams to speak of and each club has varying numbers of shooters week to week. Average from 30 to 40 shooters per club counting juniors.I just wish some kind of spring,summer type of league could be started.I do belie one person is working on this.Right now the League starts in Oct. and runs to Feb. every Sat except maybe one off around the holidays.15 shoots in all.I do find it challenging to make all 15,wouldn't mind it maybe a little shorter and have a winter and summer league.I realize summer leagues probably have the trouble of vacations being a problem.

OOps,sorry got to rambling again.

Doug H.(pa)
 

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Doug, the forerunner of your PenMar League was the LanChester Winter League that was run for many years by Jim Brown from Lancaster. Although I live west of Harrisburg, I shot with my buddies in that league and asked Jim why he didn't have a summer version as well. He told me that as registered shooting was so popular in Pennsylvania and since so many clubs hold one and two-day shoots each weekend during the summer, so many weekend would have to be skipped that league shooters would loose interest or at least loose track of when the league shot next.

Granted, back then registered shooting was not in a decline of sorts as it now is and email and other methods of communication were not as popular as they are now, so it might work.

In 1990, I started the Capitol Area Trapshooting League, a winter league patterned after Jim's but in the Harrisburg area. We grew to five clubs, 146 shooters and 15 weekly shoots plus a trophy or money shoot at season's end. I twice tried holding a summer season but those shoots suffered in attendance just as Jim suspected. I closed the league in 2006 but with different clubs, it is now run January through March by Al Plotts as the Central Penn Trap League and consists of four clubs with 80-some shooters.

Play Dead, there is a 50-target winter league in central Pennsylvania's mountainous coal region called the Schuykill County Trap League that counts SEVEN scores for each club each week. One club, the Short Mountain Conservation Association, has posted TWO seven-man perfect scores of 350, once in 2006 and again in 2009!

Ed
 

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AverageEd, the seven perfect fifties are impressive. I am familiar with the clubs in the Schuylkill county league, but did not realize they counted seven scores for a team each week.

By the way, just to clear up any confusion, the perfect seasons in the LVTL league were five 25's for a team...in each of the season's 14 weeks. Basically 1750 x 1750 targets for the year! This has happened only three times in 60 years since the league started in 1954. Ontelaunee in 1982-83, Ontelaunee in 2003-2004, and North end in 2004-2005.

The league record for clubs posting a perfect 125 x 125 (remember 25 bird league and counting only five scores) was by 9 different clubs at a particular shoot in one season.

Very interesting info.

Play Dead
 
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