Trapshooters Forum banner

61 - 80 of 99 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
Discussion Starter #61
awesome, thanks!
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
You have the Lyman Manual, I believe. That is a good source, but some of the info is a bit dated. I think the very best source is each respective powder company:
hodgdonreloading.com/data/shotgun
alliantpowder.com/reloaders/index.aspx

There may be others, but these powder companies are the "big players" in shotshell reloading powders and have their own reloading data recipes that have been tested and deemed to be safe.
Don't overlook powders by Western, including Ramshot Competition and Accurate Nitro 100. Lots of very good data from them:

http://www.accuratepowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/WPHandloading-Guide-7.0-Web-REV.pdf
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
692 Posts
All I loaded for the first 10 years of my reloading experience was Remington hulls. One wad, one powder, one load. Then a friend gave me a pile of Federal papers. I have not been the same since....
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
OK, I'm going to try shooting 7/8 oz loads and see how that goes:

7/8 oz #8 shot loads
Remington STS hulls
Clay Buster 0178-12 wads
Winchester 209 primers
Hodgdon Clays powder (about 18.5 gn)

How's that, any suggestions?

TIA
Hmmm! That is exactly what I load! ;)

The only change I might suggest, is to drop the powder to 17.5 gn. There is no need for speed during practice and it will be a bit easier on your shoulder and potential flinching problems after tens of thousands of shots.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
Hmmm! That is exactly what I load! ;)

The only change I might suggest, is to drop the powder to 17.5 gn. There is no need for speed during practice and it will be a bit easier on your shoulder and potential flinching problems after tens of thousands of shots.
The downside of this advice is by dropping the powder by a grain you also reduce the pressure of a load that probably already is on the low side. This leads to a more dirty burn. Anytime you do something like this there is a trade off. It's a 7/8 oz. load for Pete's sake, they always will run faster than a heavier load.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
Hodgdon shows the pressure for the 17.5 gn Clays load at 8,500 psi. and the 18.5 at about 9,400 psi. What is considered to be on the low side, pressure-wise? I've shot both 17.5 gn and 18.5 gn in this load and see no appreciable difference in the barrels after 150 shells or so. Maybe I've been reloading whimp loads unknowingly? What is the preferred pressure range for most efficient burning in Clays? That's what I hope to aim for.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
7,566 Posts
Hodgdon shows the pressure for the 17.5 gn Clays load at 8,500 psi. and the 18.5 at about 9,400 psi. What is considered to be on the low side, pressure-wise? I've shot both 17.5 gn and 18.5 gn in this load and see no appreciable difference in the barrels after 150 shells or so. Maybe I've been reloading whimp loads unknowingly? What is the preferred pressure range for most efficient burning in Clays? That's what I hope to aim for.
I always load above 10,000 psi.
It's not a matter of WIMP load.
It's about cleanliness!
Smokeless Powder does not burn completely with low pressure.
9,000 is probably fine.
MG
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
Hodgdon shows the pressure for the 17.5 gn Clays load at 8,500 psi. and the 18.5 at about 9,400 psi. What is considered to be on the low side, pressure-wise? I've shot both 17.5 gn and 18.5 gn in this load and see no appreciable difference in the barrels after 150 shells or so. Maybe I've been reloading whimp loads unknowingly? What is the preferred pressure range for most efficient burning in Clays? That's what I hope to aim for.
First, I never said the pressure was "low," I said it was on the "low side" and I never said either load was "Whimp." For me, I look for pressures in the 10k psi range so 9500 would be on the low side. And the point of my post was lowering the powder charge by a grain will impact more than just its velocity, it will impact the pressure, which will have an impact on cleanliness. Looking at the data, if I were to use Clays in a 7/8 oz. load, I would use a Fed primer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
Discussion Starter #69
This is awesome, Nebs, now I'm beginning to understand what you're talking about! This is good to know.

Hulls 101:

There are two broad categories of hulls: straight walled and tapered walled and the difference is crucial when it comes to choosing wads. The inside diameters of the straight walled hulls are a bit larger than the tapered walled hulls and this difference carries over to the outside diameters of the powder cup on the wads. Use wads for straight walled hulls in straight walled hulls and …...

  • Straight walled hulls, generally, are anything made by Federal or a European company (be careful because some US branded hulls might have been made in Europe).
  • Tapered walled hulls are any target hull made by Remington (STS/Nitro/Gun Club/Clay and Field) and the Win AA.
  • Within the Win AA, there are two types, the AACF (quit making them ~15 years ago but lots of them still around and one of the best hulls ever for reloading) and the newer style AAHS (reloading data from Alliant and Hodgdon says their data will work for both but they really don't, other threads on this).
  • Many times, the data will give you a load that will fit in the AACF but will be too tall for the AAHS, but this can be cured with a simple wad change.
  • Not all straight walled hulls have the same height to the internal base wad. Some will be higher than others and this effects wad choice.

Another data point is primers. From this standpoint, there are two broad categories of hulls: US made and European made and this makes a difference in primer selection. The US made primers are a bit smaller in diameter than their European cousins. If you try to use the bigger Euro primers in a US made hull, you will expand the primer pocket such that if you subsequently try to load using a US made primer, the primer will fall out (don't ask me how I know this). I also suspect the same thing might happen if you go to use a US made primer in a Euro hull. Anyway, once you use a Euro primer in a US made hull, you can't go back to a US primer.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,018 Posts
This is awesome, Nebs, now I'm beginning to understand what you're talking about! This is good to know.
As I said earlier, Nebs gives good advise when it comes to loading.

Since you are new to loading shotgun shells, there is a lot to learn, but if you follow printed data working up loads, you will always be safe.

When guys get into trouble is when they start substituting components and don't use published load data.

Good Luck and Good Shooting!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
First, I never said the pressure was "low," I said it was on the "low side" and I never said either load was "Whimp." For me, I look for pressures in the 10k psi range so 9500 would be on the low side. And the point of my post was lowering the powder charge by a grain will impact more than just its velocity, it will impact the pressure, which will have an impact on cleanliness. Looking at the data, if I were to use Clays in a 7/8 oz. load, I would use a Fed primer.
Thank you for your input. I experimented with close to 20 gn loads (per data) with these components and felt it wasn't as "fun" after a long practice session. In pistol shooting, we use the term "whimp load" tongue-in-cheek, not to be taken literally.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
Thank you for your input. I experimented with close to 20 gn loads (per data) with these components and felt it wasn't as "fun" after a long practice session. In pistol shooting, we use the term "whimp load" tongue-in-cheek, not to be taken literally.
Looking at the data, 17 gr. of Clays with a AA-style 7/8 oz wad and a Fed primer would be ideal. That Fed primer really "reacts" well with Clays. Thanks for causing me to look more closely at this. But I question whether it would produce enough gas to cycle an autoloader.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
436 Posts
Nebs, I defer to your expertise in this area. I've only loaded 4-5,000 shells for various shotgun sports, plus 30,000 pistol and rifle reloads, which hardly qualifies me as an expert. My 20 gn Clays loads of 7/8 oz Magnum lead were approaching max load (after which pressures can spike, from a ballistics point of view, if I understand correctly). I'm sure Hodgdon's load data has a margin of safety for reloading metering errors, but I was concerned about shooting loads with just .1 gn below max published. That's the only reason I went with 18.5 gn, which I admit is a long way from 20.0, ballistically.

I will remember the tip about Federal primers for the lower Clays loads. I'm happy with 18.5-19.0, but I'll file that one away.

In full disclosure, though I am a fan of Clays, because it just flat has always worked for me, I just ordered a couple of pounds of Alliant Extra-Lite and Cheddite primers (reduced cost) to experiment a bit, hoping I can yet improve on the powder used for 7/8 oz loads.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
Nebs, I defer to your expertise in this area. I've only loaded 4-5,000 shells for various shotgun sports, plus 30,000 pistol and rifle reloads, which hardly qualifies me as an expert. My 20 gn Clays loads of 7/8 oz Magnum lead were approaching max load (after which pressures can spike, from a ballistics point of view, if I understand correctly). I'm sure Hodgdon's load data has a margin of safety for reloading metering errors, but I was concerned about shooting loads with just .1 gn below max published. That's the only reason I went with 18.5 gn, which I admit is a long way from 20.0, ballistically.

I will remember the tip about Federal primers for the lower Clays loads. I'm happy with 18.5-19.0, but I'll file that one away.

In full disclosure, though I am a fan of Clays, because it just flat has always worked for me, I just ordered a couple of pounds of Alliant Extra-Lite and Cheddite primers (reduced cost) to experiment a bit, hoping I can yet improve on the powder used for 7/8 oz loads.
I gotta tell ya, I've had sort of an epiphany with this. I was always of the opinion one need at least 2 powders in order to cover the range between 7/8 oz.and 1 1/8 oz. Looking at the data for 7/8 oz and Clays has caused me to rethink this and I'm not so sure anymore. I'm beginning to believe one powder, and there are several that will fit the bill, will work, you just need 2 primers, the Win and the Fed. Use the Fed in the 7/8 oz. to bring the pressure up and the Win will do just fine in the other 2 shot charges. I have not looked at Alliant, but I believe Nitro 100, Clays, Titewad and IMR Red will work well in covering the waterfront in 12 ga. Excepting of course, over 1200 fps handicap-type 1 1 /8 oz. loads.

Thanks again for causing me to look more closely at the data. If you used the Fed primer, you could cut your powder charge and load speed (and recoil) and make your load more economical at the same time. If one were looking to simplify one's life, all you would need is a variety of Rem hulls (for color coding purposes) 1 powder, 2 primers (Win and Fed) and 3 wads to span the range from 7/8 to 1 1/8 oz. I'm sure I will have flame coming my way soon.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
Discussion Starter #76
This is so helpful, I can have my cake and eat it too!!!

Perfect! Just the data I needed!

I assume those hulls are all interchangeable (the green Premier, the Gold, the Gun Club and the Field and Clay) using the same wads and powders?

The green Premier are the shiny green STSes or the original thicker Premiers by Remington prior to the STSs? The Gun Clubs have a silver base and not brass, right? If that works, I have about 15 flats of Gun Clubs. Any problems with the non-brass Gun Clubs?

On the powders my current plan is to stay at 1200 or less speed. So using one powder would be awesome. You mentioned Nitro 100 could be really good. Should I get that or stick with the Titewad powder?

Great, I'll get both the Fed and Win primers. They are the 209 primers, right?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
124 Posts
Reload almost all gun clubs for practice..AA gray handicap hulls for Lewis Class. (Brass Base).this was because I starter shooting a rem 870 pump...the brass was the most reliable not to hang up...trying to be the most respectable to fellow shooters shooting. ..using the MEC sizemaster the gun clubs didn't hang up due to the sizing the collet did...now I shoot a trap gun and they all slide in smoothly...very good supply of gun clubs as I have 3 shooters save me their hulls...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
150 Posts
I gotta tell ya, I've had sort of an epiphany with this. I was always of the opinion one need at least 2 powders in order to cover the range between 7/8 oz.and 1 1/8 oz. Looking at the data for 7/8 oz and Clays has caused me to rethink this and I'm not so sure anymore. I'm beginning to believe one powder, and there are several that will fit the bill, will work...
700X being one of them. Currently using it for 7/8 oz. trap loads.

Don
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
5,530 Posts
700X being one of them. Currently using it for 7/8 oz. trap loads.

Don
There is a reason 700X is not on my list, it's because Hodgdon does not recommend it for 7/8 oz, at least for Rem hulls. When you go to their online data guide and select Rem hull and 7/8 oz., 700X is not a powder available for selection. Where did you get your 7/8 oz. 700X data?

PS: Because this thread jumped the shark, I broke this discussion off into a new thread. See the '"covering the waterfront" thread.
 
61 - 80 of 99 Posts
Top