all of the tula choked bbls i have seen were 12 guage. were subguages made, or more importantly, successful? for instance, the krieghoff bbl sets i have seen are non tula but there are tula choked 12 guage k-gun bbls. just curious. thanks tom mc
I only know of Twelve Ga. I talked to Krieghoff in Florida they had a couple of sets of barrels listed for sale. In my humble opinion the Tula choke is still the best skeet chokes on the market. They give the densest pattern and really crush clay targets. Ken
Is "Tula" a brand name or a type of choke. I remember reading somewhere that this was a type of choke originally developed at the Soviet armory at Tula in which the constriction was applied in two separate stages within the barrel.
What is a "Tula" choke? Are they better than a single constriction choke?
They were developed by the Russians for International skeet shooting in the 1970's. Their advantage was supposed to be a longer shot string, which was thought to be a good idea with the many crossing targets.
As the Russians designed it, they were basically a longer more complicated jug type choke that actually increased to way larger than 12 gauge bore size. You need to use the felt/paper type wad system to make it work as designed so the shot itself can compress and reopen in the choke. A one piece plastic wad negates this effect.
I would call the Cutts compensator the predecessor to the Tula choke (named for the Russian armory where it was made?) The charge enters a large chamber, necks down in the next section, then expands again in the last section of the choke before exiting the barrel. The effect was less w/ a modern wad but still worked well. The effect, however, seemed to diminish w/ the 1 z. load and may have been counter productive w/ 24g load. Ljutic made a skeet gun w/ what he called a patternator choke which shot an extremely large pattern w/ the T-122 & T-123 Federals and w/ the Winchester 32g international loads. All three had an uncollared wad.
I am afraid you are quite wrong about the purpose of the Tula choke as designed by the Russians for skeet shooting. Do some research and you will see that I am correct about their goal being to lenghten the shot string. Possibly what different manufactures came up with for their barrels that were made for retail sale were very different than an actual Tula choke.
For example, here is a quote from an article from ClayShooting USA _ February 2007 issue .....
"As Bob Brister noted, it was remarkably similar to having a Cutts Compensator built into the barrel. And by over-boring, I don't mean opening the bore by 10 thou or so -- the retro section of a .729 bore is usually in excess of .790. Its effect was to lenghten the shot string thus providing the optimum pattern for the close range, acute angles found on the Skeet layout. As Soviet shooters swept the board, Western shooters rushed to copy the new wonder chokes." end quote
Yes, I know that they were supposed to be matched with fiber wads and I shot those dreadful T-122's for as long as I could stand it, but it was clear the scores were no different, so I went back light AA's and at least the headaches went away.
I did an extensive test on open chokes last fall. Remembering that they were to open patterns more, I tested them against my open-pattern champions. Twenty yards, ten shots, counted pellets. Since the aim of all these chokes is to open patterns, shotgun-Insight's 75% diameter (not pattern percentage) was the appropriate statistic to track. It refers to the diameter of a circle which would hold 75% of the pellet-holes.
The Tula did not do anything special with the shells I used. Specifically it shot tighter, not more openly. than three barrels costing a tenth or twentieth as much.
The Tula shot about like "cylinder" screw-in chokes, which shoot, of course, tighter than "real" cylinder chokes.
I shot a lot of international skeet during the late 60's through late 70's.Had several discussions with the Russian teams,pecifically Petrov. In his opinion the Tula choke differed from the Cutts compensator with Spreader tube only by the actual dimnsions, not the philosophy.
Allegedly he Soviet shooters were intrigued by the Cutts pre WWII and the notion of a more efficient choke for skeet was derived b the expansion, contraction and 'spread' thoughts. The notion, wen expressed to me was that the pattern shot string was Compressed -not lengthened - and there was better coverage/ensity within a specific diameter at 21-25 yards.
He(and Brister)described the pattern more as a 'pie plate' than a 'cone'.
I neve had the facilitis to test the theory but I shot the same T-122's as Neil, as well as some miniature dynamite suplied to me by Konnie Wirnheir when he rep'd for Rottweil after his 1972 Gold. I nticed the glasses knocked off my ears and ringing in my ears but wet back to the paper Federals most of us were shooting.
The Krieghoff "Tula" choke doesn't look much like the Russian version. I don't doubt Neil's findings. However, I shot at Ft.Benning in 1977 with Phil Provence who was the USAMU coach, and he was shooting a Russian Baikal MC8 with the real Tula choke. He said he had a 58" pattern at skeet ranges. The shells used then were Federal T-123, 3.5dr,1&1/8 oz,#10 shot. Kicked like a mule, but the target destruction had to be seen to be believed! I still have a box of them left. The USAMU's duties were to shoot, clean-up, and throw darts.Not bad duty. I learned a lot on that trip, and made a quantum leap in my Int'l Skeet shooting as a result.
Browning is doing something different with their choke tubes in their new 725.
A friend bought one and I measured his barrels and the choke tubes. The choke tubes open up about .018 and then there is restriction at the end of the tube. This is the chart I made for him.
BROWNING 725 OVER/UNDER
OVER BARREL = .735 RESTRICTION
UNDER BARREL = .735 RESTRICTION
SK = .753 TO .738 = RESTRICTION OF .003+
IC = .753 TO .733 = RESTRICTION OF .002
M = .753 TO .728 = RESTRICTION OF .007
IM = .754 TO .722 = RESTRICTION OF .013
F = .754 TO .700 = RESTRICTION OF .035
He is going to go to Kingsburg this next Sunday and we are going to pattern the tubes and see how the gun shoots. It will be interesting.
Other than being expensive the T122 was no more than a 3 dram skeet load w/ composite wad and no shot cup designed for use at Greys Lake range in Chicago to shoot into the lake and not leave plastic wads floating. The T-123's were the burners and would indeed knock your ---- in the dirt as would the Winchester 3-1/2 dram #10's loads only more so.
The choke in my Rottweil and MC-8 seemed to do the same thing as a Cutts; shoot a large pattern that had the effect similar to throwing a target flat against a wall. The target broke evenly in many, many pieces and fell straight down. It seemed never to leave a smoke trail as blowing through the target. The reason Kenny Barnes used the old Winchesters w/ the shot wrapped only in a plastic strip to protect it in the bore before the Cutts' he shot.(The first 4x100 in American skeet.)
Puff: That was Lincoln Park Traps in Chicago, Grays Lake is 20 miles from water. Winchester loaded special shells for them without plastic wads, which I used for Intl Skeet. Pleasant to shoot. The Win Intl load was 2mm.shot, just slightly larger than #10. In those days, Winchester would load you anything you wanted if Qty was 5000 or more, 10 cases, not flats.