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Ram Rod, although I believe you do know the answer, I will simply state that Junior Gold is an age bracket category, available to both genders between the age of 18 and 23.

For everyone else here, I will state again that Junior Gold was created to keep parents and grandparents (of young people still at home/going to school) writing checks so the young man/woman will continue shooting ATA and chasing AA Points. Was that goal achieved ?? I do not know but you cannot just say that the category is crap and should be eliminated without some facts.

Again, I would like to know what you category eliminators believe will be accomplished if you were to get your way (which you won't). Remember most ATA targets are shot by a small number of shooters. Many in that group are chasing AA points. I could be wrong, but I believe eliminating categories would have a negative effect on shooter participation. I don't think the ATA would take that chance.
 
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Discussion Starter · #43 ·
Again, I would like to know what you category eliminators believe will be accomplished if you were to get your way (which you won't). Remember most ATA targets are shot by a small number of shooters. Many in that group are chasing AA points. I could be wrong, but I believe eliminating categories would have a negative effect on shooter participation. I don't think the ATA would take that chance.
Can you tell us just how many new shooters were created when the new categories were put in place?
Using your logic we should have seen an explosion of membership......I don't believe that was the case?
 

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10 years ago Jr Gold didn't have enough shooters and they could occasionally pick up an easy win .
That's not the case anymore.
The catagory has been popular and has become highly competitive.
Its here to stay.
Henry
 

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Category shooters are not the problem making seasoned shooters disillusioned with the ATA. The problem is the lack of shooters playing options and purses, clubs not getting some sponsors for added money. The lack of purses and added money is not the fault of the ATA, it is the shooters who attend the shoots and clubs that host the shoots.
 

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I guess some people on here don't understand what would happen if any of the current categories were eliminated. Without categories for the different age groups our sport would be dead is very short time. As we age our abilities and competitiveness decline making it difficult to compete with the younger age competitor on a daily basis. Yes we can have a good day but they get less as we age. The young kids are winning almost everything these days so getting rid of those Junior and Junior gold would just drop the opens classes down more. Getting rid of the Sub-Vet and the Lady II would be a big mistake, well where do you think the money is coming from for all the Juniors and Junior Gold its coming from, along with all the Clubs donations of time and money. Doing away with any of these categories will start a domino affect to the ATA that will not be able to ever recover from. With Shell prices ,entry fee's gas and just about everything else going up now is the not the time to be doing crazy changes to our sport.
 

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Category shooters are not the problem making seasoned shooters disillusioned with the ATA. The problem is the lack of shooters playing options and purses, clubs not getting some sponsors for added money. The lack of purses and added money is not the fault of the ATA, it is the shooters who attend the shoots and clubs that host the shoots.
Sure disheartening to spend whatever money it takes to play all the options, shoot good enough to win, then not even get all your money back. Or just get your money back. What’s the point of it at that rate?
 
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All you have to do is look at the number of shooters who were shooting a particular shoot, say the Grand, before all of these categories got started and look at the numbers now. Do this and see if its working. I am talking total number of shooters in all categories. I think the majority of shooters could care less about AA points because they don't have the time to chase them. I still say go ahead and have all of these categories but let them shoot for category trophies and let open shoot for open trophies. I would also partially agree with Rick Barker about options and purses, but they started going downhill after the money punch. I mean really a guy shoots a bad score and gets $750.00 from a lewis or an odd 25 so he gets a punch. That's the ATA's fault !!
 

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I think some state shoots already hand out participation trophies. 5th place for handicap. Really? I think it should be champion and runner up and then category winners and fewer of those too. Some of these state shoots have less than 125 shooters in the championship event. Giving a 5 th place award is next to a participation trophy. Sometimes they are shell carriers or pouches that say 5th place. Why do I want to parade around in something that is for the 4th loser of the event. The thing is just dumb. I don't think the trinkets are big motivators to those I shoot with. Just being honest and not ungrateful but the trophy co.mittwe should use the funds in other ways.
 

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Hunter44 - I stated a couple of times that I do not know the answer to your question. I am simply stating the reasons for the category expansion(s). I have asked you category eliminators to quantify the benefit of eliminating categories. A full spectrum of categories is only used at AA Points shoots - does not change anything at smaller shoots.
 
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Sure disheartening to spend whatever money it takes to play all the options, shoot good enough to win, then not even get all your money back. Or just get your money back. What’s the point of it at that rate?
Two sides to that coin as well. Some people believe purses and options should be paid to the single highest score of the event, maybe a second place. Other people believe as I do, purses should be played and awarded by class and handicap. Some shoots I attend, where it is strictly high gun payout, I will not participate. The way I look at it, why even have classes and handicap if the winnings are paid to the highest score? I doubt this will ever be decided.
 

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Two sides to that coin as well. Some people believe purses and options should be paid to the single highest score of the event, maybe a second place. Other people believe as I do, purses should be played and awarded by class and handicap. Some shoots I attend, where it is strictly high gun payout, I will not participate. The way I look at it, why even have classes and handicap if the winnings are paid to the highest score? I doubt this will ever be decided.
I agree Rick , High Gun only purses at shoots are sucker bets unless ,you can be sure of breaking in the mid to high 90s. I might play a Lewis ( luck of the draw) purse and on rare occasion play a yardage purse but that's it . I'm not in this game to help the Big Dogs increase their bank account. Too many and baggers in the singles or doubles to even think about those purses. In the old days there was a lot of "added" money but now it is almost ALL GONE and the tiny amount left goes the high gun route instead of being divided .
 

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I guess some people on here don't understand what would happen if any of the current categories were eliminated. Without categories for the different age groups our sport would be dead is very short time. As we age our abilities and competitiveness decline making it difficult to compete with the younger age competitor on a daily basis. Yes we can have a good day but they get less as we age. The young kids are winning almost everything these days so getting rid of those Junior and Junior gold would just drop the opens classes down more. Getting rid of the Sub-Vet and the Lady II would be a big mistake, well where do you think the money is coming from for all the Juniors and Junior Gold its coming from, along with all the Clubs donations of time and money. Doing away with any of these categories will start a domino affect to the ATA that will not be able to ever recover from. With Shell prices ,entry fee's gas and just about everything else going up now is the not the time to be doing crazy changes to our sport.
I'm not saying get rid of the Jr. Categories , They have been around for AGES but this Jr. Gold BS is just plain stupid. To me some young guy in his 20s taking a Jr. Gold trophy rates right up there with some young dude competing in girl's sports !
 

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Ram Rod, although I believe you do know the answer, I will simply state that Junior Gold is an age bracket category, available to both genders between the age of 18 and 23.

For everyone else here, I will state again that Junior Gold was created to keep parents and grandparents (of young people still at home/going to school) writing checks so the young man/woman will continue shooting ATA and chasing AA Points. Was that goal achieved ?? I do not know but you cannot just say that the category is crap and should be eliminated without some facts.

Again, I would like to know what you category eliminators believe will be accomplished if you were to get your way (which you won't). Remember most ATA targets are shot by a small number of shooters. Many in that group are chasing AA points. I could be wrong, but I believe eliminating categories would have a negative effect on shooter participation. I don't think the ATA would take that chance.
Delete JG category and here is what the 2020 All American team would look like. Very few current Open shooters would win any thing
1314960​
DAGENVOIGTMANPLATTSMOUTHNE3064jg
1416588​
NOAHGOUGELANSINGNC2466jg
1111804​
CANYONFERRISTUCSONAZ2345jg
7802513​
KEITHDITTOBRANDENBURGKY2224O
1314993​
LUKECOWARTKENNETT SQUAREPA2201jg
922311​
AUSTINJACOBCOPLEYOH2105jg
1511710​
JERRYOSBORNE IIIMETTERGA2043jg
817349​
PATRICKHOPSONGATESVILLETX2040jg
1115499​
CHASEHORTONST CHARLESIL2024O
1515391​
RILEYROSSST PAULNE1991jg
8107832​
SEANHAWLEYVERNALUT1826O
9803477​
JOSEPHCHARNIGOLODIOH1802O
1013743​
GREGORYFERGUSONFORT MORGANCO1614jg
8802399​
RICHARDMARSHALL JRLINCOLNNE1569O
1311661​
HUNTERSPRUILLST CHARLESMO1523jg
9404499​
IANDARROCHALIQUIPPAPA1430O
812774​
CORBINGRYBOWSKIARAPAHOOK1402jg
9505028​
AARONWILLOUGHBYCLAY CITYKY1380O
1010696​
SHARREDOAKSVERNALUT1363O
1010996​
BOBBYFOWLERGRACEYKY1358jg
1110783​
CHANDLERBROWNWEINERAR1351O
8503923​
TIMREEDBATHSD1342O
8800978​
DENISBRINGELSONNEW RAYMERCO129O
 

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That really does not prove much. AA points are not all created equal. How many points would Dagan have if he had to earn his in the open category? He would still have a bunch but not as many. How many would Ziggy have if he had to shoot in the open category?
 

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That really does not prove much. AA points are not all created equal. How many points would Dagan have if he had to earn his in the open category? He would still have a bunch but not as many. How many would Ziggy have if he had to shoot in the open category?
There are no categories for event champion or HOA or HAA. And most of those names aren’t there for only category wins. I know one of them on that list personally. He wins event championships as an open shooter often out of state champion. He’s a jr gold but the boy shot and broke every singles target in the AIM grand AND the Grand American one year. 1200+ straight.

Don’t sell the jrG shooters short. Just be glad they let you win something in your category after they’ve won event champ in every event.
 

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Unsure why there is concern about too many categories? I was hoping to see a Super Senior Vet category added since the Senior Vet category is so competitive with too many good shooters. Let's face it, we are running out of future opportunities to win a trophy!
 

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I certainly do not have the answer. On the surface I agree that the categories should be compressed. I also understand the argument to leave them as is, and I hear the arguments to add a Pre-Sub Jr and a Super Senior Vet. And I hear the argument to add a lady structure to each category.
What I do know (from experience) is that the most thankless (PIA) job at a State Shoot or other such shoot is to be either chair of, or be on the trophy committee. I am sure many who argue to keep or expand the categories have worked as chair, or a member of the trophy committee, at many shoots. But until you do such a job I am not sure you fully understand where those who would like to see categories reduced are coming from ........................
Or, another solution would be for those volunteers who have worked their butts off running these shoots all these years, get a nice chair in the shade and sit their until their squad is called to the line and after shooting return to the nice chair in the shade --- that is becoming more appealing every day. Doing so would give others the opportunity to experience shoot admin.........
 

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Delete JG category and here is what the 2020 All American team would look like. Very few current Open shooters would win any thing
AA points do not "transfer" at all.

Since the points are based on the scores shot within each category, you cannot say that someone would have earned the same number of points if they were in a different category.

Moving any shooter's points to another category and saying "See. They would win this other category" is not at all correct. Apples and Oranges.

For example, the three high scores in Open could be 100, 99, and 98. The three high scores in Junior Gold could be 99, 97, 95. Those JG's with the 97s and 95s would not have earned any points if they were in Open in that event. And the JGs with 99 would have earned less points in Open in that event.
 

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Hunter44 - I stated a couple of times that I do not know the answer to your question. I am simply stating the reasons for the category expansion(s). I have asked you category eliminators to quantify the benefit of eliminating categories. A full spectrum of categories is only used at AA Points shoots - does not change anything at smaller shoots.
If you want to quantify it, look at the cost of the trophy package, then look at the number of trophies given out.
 
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