[timb99]

Neil felt an overwhelming urge to have people believe as he believed.

Neil had an overwhelming urge to dispel falsehoods, which he commonly called "porch talk wisdom" using evidence. Evidence is the opposite of beliefs.

...and would spend innumerable hours making data and charts presentable to support his beliefs.

What he did was not an effort to support his beliefs. It was an effort to find the facts, despite beliefs. Evidence is the opposite of beliefs.

As to the rest, I encourage you to read this book. It's dry reading, and it helps if you have a background in statistics, but it's pretty thorough regarding the realities of how shotgun barrels really do what they do.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation: Jones, Dr A C: 9780956662705: Amazon.com: Books

Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation [Jones, Dr A C] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation

www.amazon.com

 

[Biged]

Good morning Tim! Wishing you a great day today!

 

[pheasantmaster]

Neil had an overwhelming urge to dispel falsehoods, which he commonly called "porch talk wisdom" using evidence. Evidence is the opposite of beliefs.

What he did was not an effort to support his beliefs. It was an effort to find the facts, despite beliefs. Evidence is the opposite of beliefs.

As to the rest, I encourage you to read this book. It's dry reading, and it helps if you have a background in statistics, but it's pretty thorough regarding the realities of how shotgun barrels really do what they do.

Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation: Jones, Dr A C: 9780956662705: Amazon.com: Books

Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation [Jones, Dr A C] on Amazon.com. *FREE* shipping on qualifying offers. Sporting Shotgun Performance: Measurement, Analysis, Optimisation

www.amazon.com

Statistically, repeatable evidence can verify and substantiate beliefs too.
Just saying🤪

 

[timb99]

Good morning Tim! Wishing you a great day today!

And the same to you my friend.

 

[timb99]

Evidence can verify and substantiate beliefs too.

True indeed.

 

[Trap Cat]

Feeling a bit battered with my original post. I wish to address some issues brought up in responses.

-Some good points have been made, don't call it a test without empirical methodology. Agreed.
-This was not an empirical evidence research study. I did not hold a pre and post with 20 samples in identical temperature/humidity/sunlight/wind conditions. It took 10 weeks to get the barrel done, so repeating identical conditions for pre and post was impossible. I did have pre barrel work pictures but had deleted them when the joy they gave me diminished. I have tried to see if Apple Cloud still had them but to no avail. That will be nailed up as a lousy excuse by naysayers. Is what it is. They existed and now do not. I made them, drew conclusions from them (hot core and strays) which drove me to see if improvement could be achieved with a process. I certainly felt there was a motivating issue in place that required action.
-Anecdotal observations do not delight the analytical mind. Rather it seems to drive the analytical mind toward a refusal to consider intangible variables that are not measured and evidenced as not relevant to the process in any way. If you didn't do it my way then it is not relevant. If not empirical, then not to be considered. Seems to me that can result in a closed mind which can go...well we know we are all guilty of that one. People do get convicted of crime with only anecdotal evidence...Seems the case here.
-I am happy with what I spent to get what I got. I "perceive" less recoil (anecdotal). I see better breaks (anecdotal). I feel more confidence, likely because I am concentrating more given a change in my game (anecdotal). For some reason I feel more motivated to keep my chokes clean (anecdotal).
-In the future I will not make spontaneous decisions to post anything (even pictures of my dog) without empirical evidence certified by outside reviewers.
-Some did not read my tag line. It is what I am if you know me. When younger I was a truck driver that became a welder in the oil patch who after Mother's continual prodding was convinced to go to college at a late age obtaining multiple degrees, became a CPA in public practice, owned my own practice, a retail business and rental properties while becoming a University Accounting Professor lasting 28 years. I do have the mental capacity to understand science, analytical dissection and anecdotal observations. I also pride myself that I have an open mind and can consider other's opinions - observations.

Rant complete. Go Cats!

 

[John55]

Another round of it works or no it doesn't! If a person wants to have his barrel worked on for a variety of reasons and later believes it helped, why is there always a few who want to throw water on it? I'm sorry, but I don't worship at the feet of Neil Winston or his findings. I let my own eyes and scores tell me if something works or it doesn't.

 

[timb99]

For some reason I feel more motivated to keep my chokes clean

I laughed out loud at this one Fred! Love it!

 

[Trap Cat]

I laughed out loud at this one Fred! Love it!

Ordered the book you noted.

 

[Steel Charlie]

It has been well documented that in any circumstance, beliefs are immune to any rational thought or evidence to the contrary.
From 1587
If they pay a penie or two pence more for the reddinesse of them... let them looke to that, a foole and his money is soone parted

Give it up, Tim

 

[brmo]

Fred thank you for sharing this information after Tom reworked your barrel. Your beliefs echo the same thing Phil Kiner has told me. I hope you don’t let a few negative Nancy’s comments on here stop you from sharing in the future. Thanks.

 

[pheasantmaster]

Feeling a bit battered with my original post. I wish to address some issues brought up in responses.

-Some good points have been made, don't call it a test without empirical methodology. Agreed.
-This was not an empirical evidence research study. I did not hold a pre and post with 20 samples in identical temperature/humidity/sunlight/wind conditions. It took 10 weeks to get the barrel done, so repeating identical conditions for pre and post was impossible. I did have pre barrel work pictures but had deleted them when the joy they gave me diminished. I have tried to see if Apple Cloud still had them but to no avail. That will be nailed up as a lousy excuse by naysayers. Is what it is. They existed and now do not. I made them, drew conclusions from them (hot core and strays) which drove me to see if improvement could be achieved with a process. I certainly felt there was a motivating issue in place that required action.
-Anecdotal observations do not delight the analytical mind. Rather it seems to drive the analytical mind toward a refusal to consider intangible variables that are not measured and evidenced as not relevant to the process in any way. If you didn't do it my way then it is not relevant. If not empirical, then not to be considered. Seems to me that can result in a closed mind which can go...well we know we are all guilty of that one. People do get convicted of crime with only anecdotal evidence...Seems the case here.
-I am happy with what I spent to get what I got. I "perceive" less recoil (anecdotal). I see better breaks (anecdotal). I feel more confidence, likely because I am concentrating more given a change in my game (anecdotal). For some reason I feel more motivated to keep my chokes clean (anecdotal).
-In the future I will not make spontaneous decisions to post anything (even pictures of my dog) without empirical evidence certified by outside reviewers.
-Some did not read my tag line. It is what I am if you know me. When younger I was a truck driver that became a welder in the oil patch who after Mother's continual prodding was convinced to go to college at a late age obtaining multiple degrees, became a CPA in public practice, owned my own practice, a retail business and rental properties while becoming a College Accounting Professor lasting 28 years. I do have the mental capacity to understand science, analytical dissection and anecdotal observations. I also pride myself that I have an open mind and can consider other's opinions - observations.

Rant complete. Go Cats!

Keep in mind that most will never undergo the questioning process or the constant questioning that an analytic mind requires.

Test formation to prove or disprove any factor, occurrence, relativity, etc needs performed under identical conditions and preferably controlled conditions and even then errors can form or questioning raised.

For you and with revealing your recent testing per this thread, questioning has arose and your documentation has errors to substantiate undeniably that what you tried to relay to the populous in your findings.

But every good scientist is never satisfied with the resulting findings of research no matter the perimeters involved. Thus a sound and May we say dignified researcher of pattern testing will never be happy with the results of recent testing performed and thus will always to some degree sway the results do to potential outliers that may have existed.

In_a_nut_shell, no matter how conclusive the potentially indisputable evidence you provide, there will always be with upmost certainty the nonbelievers that will tear down every conceivable point in tests.

What’s important here for you trapcat and anyone that has barrel work performed is one and quite possibly the most important attribute of having barrel work performed: your going forth and engaging targets with a new level of confidence and certainty in your game and for anyone who is an achiever, the cost was worth it😜

 

[John55]

Keep in mind that most will never undergo the questioning process or the constant questioning that an analytic mind requires.

Test formation to prove or disprove any factor, occurrence, relativity, etc needs performed under identical conditions and preferably controlled conditions and even then errors can form or questioning raised.

For you and with revealing your recent testing per this thread, questioning has arose and your documentation has errors to substantiate undeniably that what you tried to relay to the populous in your findings.

But every good scientist is never satisfied with the resulting findings of research no matter the perimeters involved. Thus a sound and May we say dignified researcher of pattern testing will never be happy with the results of recent testing performed and thus will always to some degree sway the results do to potential outliers that may have existed.

In_a_nut_shell, no matter how conclusive the potentially indisputable evidence you provide, there will always be with upmost certainty the nonbelievers that will tear down every conceivable point in tests.

What’s important here for you trapcat and anyone that has barrel work performed is one and quite possibly the most important attribute of having barrel work performed: your going forth and engaging targets with a new level of confidence and certainty in your game and for anyone who is an achiever, the cost was worth it😜

Bravo! In a very eloquent way you have conveyed what many of us believe.

 

[kmf]

Funny you say that. A friend shoots an mx 10 Wilkinson fix choke .15 thou from the 27. Wouldn't know it from the smoke clouds he hangs. I'm a believer.

The shell/ load is the other variable, not just the constriction of the barrel. 20 years ago, Wilkinson used a specific load and brand of shell for development of the pattern in each barrel of my MX10 combo 👍🏻
Let’s be clear, I was no savant. It started over 40 years ago in 1980. Al Ljutic asked what shell to use in tuning my barrel. Up until then I didn’t have a clue as to what I was doing. Tom Seitz would do the same thing for some if you asked.
There was still a lot of money in trapshooting and ALOT of good shooters. They didn’t share a lot of information.
Some were even messing with the diopters in shooting glasses for different yardages.
Everyone was looking for that last magic bullet.

 

[Steel Charlie]

1877: there is a fool born every hour
1879: there’s a sucker born every minute (anonymous adage)
1882: there was a sucker born every minute (attrib anon con man)
1885: there was a sucker born every minute (attrib Hungry Joe)
1888: there is a sucker born every minute (attrib Artemus Ward)
1889: a sucker is born every minute (attrib Mike McDonald)
1890: a fool was born every minute (attrib P.T. Barnum)
1892: there was a sucker born every minute (attrib P.T. Barnum)

The above listing is obviously only the beginning

 

[timb99]

Keep in mind that most will never undergo the questioning process or the constant questioning that an analytic mind requires.

Test formation to prove or disprove any factor, occurrence, relativity, etc needs performed under identical conditions and preferably controlled conditions and even then errors can form or questioning raised.

For you and with revealing your recent testing per this thread, questioning has arose and your documentation has errors to substantiate undeniably that what you tried to relay to the populous in your findings.

But every good scientist is never satisfied with the resulting findings of research no matter the perimeters involved. Thus a sound and May we say dignified researcher of pattern testing will never be happy with the results of recent testing performed and thus will always to some degree sway the results do to potential outliers that may have existed.

In_a_nut_shell, no matter how conclusive the potentially indisputable evidence you provide, there will always be with upmost certainty the nonbelievers that will tear down every conceivable point in tests.

What’s important here for you trapcat and anyone that has barrel work performed is one and quite possibly the most important attribute of having barrel work performed: your going forth and engaging targets with a new level of confidence and certainty in your game and for anyone who is an achiever, the cost was worth it😜

To steal a line from one of my absolute favorite movies (it's about baseball, but I am taking artistic license here), "If you think you are shooting well because you are getting laid or because you're not getting laid, or because you're wearing women's underwear, then you ARE!"

 

[Dukefan]

To steal a line from one of my absolute favorite movies (it's about baseball, but I am taking artistic license here), "If you think you are shooting well because you are getting laid or because you're not getting laid, or because you're wearing women's underwear, then you ARE!"

Bull Durham!

 

[pheasantmaster]

To steal a line from one of my absolute favorite movies (it's about baseball, but I am taking artistic license here), "If you think you are shooting well because you are getting laid or because you're not getting laid, or because you're wearing women's underwear, then you ARE!"

There are more than one truism that can apply to any subject matter depending on individual.

To take from two non comparable movies: “You can’t stand the truth”. Many are afraid of the truth or how to obtain it. Maybe more so, what to do with it once found.

Second, “Feel the Force”. No young Jedi truly feels or recognizes the force for what it is. That involves teaching and development. The Force could be considered confidence and what that does for or to the individual.

The Truth and the Force can and is obsecured for most individuals. Not many will climb that mountain and very few of those will spend the time once reached.

Fred was “seeking truth” to elevate his game, trapshooting. He’s right on the fringe of accelerating beyond where he’s been established. But, the truth to accomplish this was not been unveiled. Then, quite possibly for him/Fred, he found the truth.

Now, not unlike a young Jedi, Fred is feeling the “Force”, confidence.

 

[CROY1990]

Hugh 3200, I’d like to know what your yardage and averages are? No
name in your profile but for you to make the statement you did you
obviously don‘t know much about shooting. JMO

 

[Steel Charlie]

There are more than one truism that can apply to any subject matter depending on individual.

To take from two non comparable movies: “You can’t stand the truth”. Many are afraid of the truth or how to obtain it. Maybe more so, what to do with it once found.

Second, “Feel the Force”. No young Jedi truly feels or recognizes the force for what it is. That involves teaching and development. The Force could be considered confidence and what that does for or to the individual.

The Truth and the Force can and is obsecured for most individuals. Not many will climb that mountain and very few of those will spend the time once reached.

Fred was “seeking truth” to elevate his game, trapshooting. He’s right on the fringe of accelerating beyond where he’s been established. But, the truth to accomplish this was not been unveiled. Then, quite possibly for him/Fred, he found the truth.

Now, not unlike a young Jedi, Fred is feeling the “Force”, confidence.

Judging from my spam it would seem that the ED market is constantly expanding (no pun intended). Perhaps he could share the "Force" there.
Just a thot