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I have been fighting w/gun mount for the entire 7 years I've been shooting. My best scores have always come from crawling stock. I hate it though. I have heavy eyebrows & deep set eyes. My visual acuity suffers but I stay in gun and seem to hit them better. If I move back on stock sight Picture doesn't look or feel right.
Trim your eyebrows.
 
Discussion starter · #22 ·
Rollin, I think any shotgunner regardless of the discipline can benefit a lot from reading your book, quite frankly. And no, you didn't need to write a qualifying statement of any kind in your book.

I was just trying to address the last paragraph of your previous post, which to a certain extent you've written here many times before. You said basically an erect, upright head position, like the one used by many ATA shooters, would help anybody except a few international top shooters, who have been crawling for years "for whatever reason". I explained here their reasons. Also I was curious about whether or not you or anybody else can score well using that form in Olympic trap because I never saw it before. However it's perfectly possible. I just wanted to know if you put your theory to the test personally. I think it was a legitimate question especially given the fact that there are tons of ATA shooters on this forum who shoot other disciplines including Bunker at least recreationally based upon their posts.

Rollin, you said you don't know anything about Olympic trap and never shot it or watched it before. So how can you know if anybody can break targets using the form you advocate? Who cares if your neck feels better after a day of shooting if you can't hit a decent score because you're handicapping yourself? The thing is you should go out there and test out your theory because it might actually work and in the worst case scenario you might be able to learn something new and tweak it for this particular discipline so folks like me stop bugging you:)

Also I wouldn't call Olympic style trap "foreign". The Olympic version has been developed over many decades with the input of many national federations including ours, now USA Shooting. Back in the day was the NRA if I'm not mistaken. Down the Line, for instance, is foreign. I don't think Olympic is foreign.

And finally, you said crawling the stock might work for some top level folks but not for most people on here because they're "not on the same level"? I don't quite get that. I think a form that works for a particular discipline should be used by all, regardless of level?

Anyway interesting and thought provoking posts here, thank you all.
 
Ivan M-B, I shot my first ever bunker at Ben Avery sometime after they had it operating. However, I cheated and used my 7/8ths oz loads. I watched several squads shoot thru before signing up for a round. It didn't take long to figure out which shooters to watch. My friend, more experienced in this and other forms of shotgunning decided to shoot with me, Tom Strunk, a very good shot in anything! The highest score I saw was a 22 shot by one of the fellows I choose to watch. When it came my turn, I shot it in the same fashion as I would in games shooting I've done at much longer distances with faster targets. I managed to break a 19 which was high for this squad. The good bunker shooter I watched came over and asked what gun I was using, told him and he asked if he could look at it? I said sure. He reached for it by the barrels and exclaimed, WOW! How much does this thing weigh? I told him it weighed close to 13 pounds. He asked how I could get on those targets as fast as I did? I said just like I do on faster trap targets, see it, read it and get after them!

HAP
 
Thank you Ivan! True story that can be verified by one of the most honest men I've ever known, Tom Strunk! Matter of fact, it was the first time I've ever seen a bunker trap first hand, watched it on TV and liked it.

HAP
 
Discussion starter · #26 ·
Very nice Hap. These days any gun over 9 pounds is considered heavy in Bunker, regardless of balance. I'd say somewhere between 8-8.5 is the norm. Back in the 80's and 90's they used to be even lighter. So what you did had indeed much merit.
 
Some people are crawlers. That's just the way it is. Nothing right or wrong about it. A crawler requires a bit more consideration when it comes to gun fit, being that a lot of conventional style comb cuts may interfere with their style. If the comb is cut too far back, the front may dig into their cheek.
 
I understand that the question refers to target shooting, but this is an interesting image that refutes the "lotsa drop head up" turn-of-the-century shooting mythology.

Sept. 29 1906 Forest & Stream

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Ted Williams

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For those interested
Turn-of-the-Century Gun Mount
 
What Tron said, and ouch!

Erminio Frasca, Italy, 2008 Beijing Olympic Trap

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The Olympic shooters are shooting real light loads and no 1300 target weeks. Those loads are more like shooting a 20 gauge. Not the same as crawling the stock on some kicking handicap loads 400 or 500 times a week.
 
I inadvertently learned to stock crawl by learning to shoot on a gun that was a little to short and having a slightly longer than average neck. My conclusion from trying to un-learn this habit is that I was able to be very consistent with my head placement the old way. So I now occasionally catch myself wanting to revert. I was essentially bending my head forward and down as was reasonably comfortable and this was very repeatable. Being a standard Remington shotgun the sloped comb meant that my head was higher than intended, but that gave me a higher POI which was good for quail and targets. I also felt slightly more connected to the gun and more intent on the target as I was not only looking with my eyes but literally extending my head and face toward the bird, pointing with all my being. Quite a description, but it is probably why the concept works for some.
 
Discussion starter · #35 ·
The Olympic shooters are shooting real light loads and no 1300 target weeks. Not the same as crawling the stock on some kicking handicap loads 400 or 500 times a week.
t jordan, according to Kim Rhode, she shoots 700 rounds a day, 5 or 6 days a week. Granted, she doesn't seem to be exactly a crawler and she's a skeet shooter. But most of national federations in Europe fund their national team members training regimes and those fellas shoot hundreds of rounds a day. That's their job. It's a taxpayer funded life, which to me is not appropriate neither moral but that's another story.

That being said, it's true that here at home the average tournament ATA shooter shoots way much more than the average club olympic shooter over there. So in that regard you got a point. But the elite olympic shooters crawl the stock and shoot like crazy and they seem to be ok with it.
 
Discussion starter · #36 ·
I inadvertently learned to stock crawl by learning to shoot on a gun that was a little to short and having a slightly longer than average neck. My conclusion from trying to un-learn this habit is that I was able to be very consistent with my head placement the old way. So I now occasionally catch myself wanting to revert. I was essentially bending my head forward and down as was reasonably comfortable and this was very repeatable. Being a standard Remington shotgun the sloped comb meant that my head was higher than intended, but that gave me a higher POI which was good for quail and targets. I also felt slightly more connected to the gun and more intent on the target as I was not only looking with my eyes but literally extending my head and face toward the bird, pointing with all my being. Quite a description, but it is probably why the concept works for some.
Bradbuser, and what form allows you to break more birds? It makes any difference score wise? Just curious.
 
Kim has a rather short neck and uses a very long LOP

Women's Trap at the 2012 London Olympics

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2016 Rio Olympics Skeet

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As does Satu Makela-Nummela, Finland
Beijing 2008 Olympic Woman's Trap Gold. Also won the Gold Medal of the ISSF World Cup, June 2016 in Baku, Azerbaijan.

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I don't believe either could "crawl the stock"
 
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Discussion starter · #39 ·
Kim has a rather short neck and uses a very long LOP

Skeet Beijing 2008

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Women's Trap at the 2012 London Olympics

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2016 Rio Olympics Skeet

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As does Satu Makela-Nummela, Finland
Beijing 2008 Olympic Woman's Trap Gold. Also won the Gold Medal of the ISSF World Cup, June 2016 in Baku, Azerbaijan.

Image


I don't believe either could "crawl the stock"
Drew, I agree with your comments about Kim and Mrs Makela. Boy those stocks are over the top long but apparently it works for them.

Speaking of Kim, you won't find a sweeter, nicer person in addition to be the greatest Olympic skeet shooter in history. I saw her training three months ago down in Redlands. I walked over to the skeet field where she was training from the Bill Bolinger bunker field where I was training. I waited until she was done and stepped off the field and then I respectfully asked for an autograph, telling her how much I admire her and that she was an inspiration for all shotguners across the country. She was so nice, great positive energy. She wrote on my performance journal " To the greatest shooter alive. Ivan, dreams truly come true: '96, '00, '04, '08, '12, '16 " And she signed at the bottom. Great champion, great American, and awesome person.
 
Bradbuser, and what form allows you to break more birds? It makes any difference score wise? Just curious.
When I started target shooting a couple years back, I took a few lessons with a friend and read various books. I so quickly lengthened my stock and started placing my face at the "recommended" distance that any comparison then and now would be dubious. However, this issue of face placement remains front of mind with my new Cynergy. With a flatter comb, it makes me wonder if it could accommodate the "crawling" that felt so natural. Flat combs have that flexibility and I think the face so close to the hand might help with natural pointing.

That said, I have 1/10th of the experience of many on this site...
 
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