[870]

I get a real kick out of these "more face" presentations. There is no magic, it is simply a matter of raising or lowering the launch angle, period. If you are putting more face on a target from a given trap you are increasing it's height at the stake, all other things being equal.

Want more face, that means you want a higher target. If you are really having a problem, maybe your trap is setting too hign in the house.

 

[870]

Dennis:

It is simple physics. More face can only result from a higher target. Period. You can only accomplish this by raising the launch angle. If you want to fool youself, you can put your trap lower and raise the height so it hits the same height spot as before at 10 yards, but you are still throwing a higher target. I do not believe that trap machines can vary the angle of attack of the target.

If other clubs are getting more face on a target at 10 yards than you can achieve, the problem is most likely with the placement of the trap in the house.

 

[870]

Setterman: there is no max height except at 10 yards; the 15' and 17'4" maximums you mention do not exist as far as a rule is concerned, that's why nobody has ever tried to measure them. It's just going to confuse some here.

 

[870]

Man this thing sure took a twist. You guys are making a claim that just about every large shoot is throwing illegal targets, and I doubt that is true. The original post was answered - pointing out that trap placement in the house was most likely the problem.

The problem with target presentation, from the ATA rule standpoint, is that the ATA finds itself stuck with hundreds of clubs with varying degrees of quality as far as trap house and trap machine installation go. A rigid ten foot limit rule works fine if every single field has the target getting launched from the same height in relation to the shooter; the problem is that in the real world that is an impossibility. If the targets are thrown from differnt heights, they will have different trajectories even though they are thrown to hit the T-Bar at say 9.5 feet.

Many many clubs will even have this situation varying from house to house. What do you want ATA to do - mandate that hundreds of fields at small clubs get torn apart and corrected? That would go over great. Well, ATA decided that consistency from trap to trap was the most important, so they left enough wiggle room in the room for clubs to try to get all their fields consistent instead of locking them into a rigid measurement scheme which would result in differing trajectories depending on trap placement. ATA doesn't set the targets, it is up to us to do the best we can.

Now the larger facilities, I expect will have overall done a better job of building the fields and placing the traps within the houses. Certainly not perfect, but better. The fact that targets are higher than you like does not mean they are illegal. To me, a ten foot target seems way too high and I don't like them, but they are not illegal.

 

[870]

Hap:

I wasn't at the Grand last year, so I can't say you are incorrect about the targets, and I do understand that you know what you are talking about. It's just my view, or maybe it's a hope really, that at the Grand I'd be surprised to find many fields that were consistently, illegally high. I'll admit, using the angle method of setting height with no T-Bar, who knows?

I'm not really sure about the 12 foot change, but I'd agree it was to try to make things more consistent, especially since 12 foot is crazy high in my opinion. I believe ATA really is trying to get more consistent targets thrown and that is why the rules are not as rigid as at one time. They realize some fields are not built the same and they are giving us the leeway to try to make each of our fields look as consistent as we can, even if that means one house throws a target to a differnet height at 10 yds than the other. At least that way we can keep roughly the same "face" on them if machine placement varies. The wiggle room I had in mind was the ability to measure height from the trap arm instead of the level of post 3's pad, combined with the 8 to 10 foot range, which can help with some situations. Note, I am saying we have the go-ahead to do this, although I'm sure it is rarely done.

My last post above was mainly because I, rightly or wrongly, was getting the feeling that some posters were getting the idea that high targets were illegal, which is not necessarily the case, and that if you really think about what is involved with building a field and placing a machine in a house, you have to accept that there will be variance not only from club to club, but trap to trap in some cases. There is more to presentation than most shooters realize. I know I am preaching to the choir when talking to you, but others don't think about all the factors involved and don't realize that every 9 foot target won't look the same as another 9 foot target, even when both are perfectly legal.

 

[870]

Hi Bob:

I'll agree with you that the landscape in front of the trap affects our perception of the target.

As far as big shoots throwing higher targets, I won't argue with you guys about that since I don't travel much, but I do shoot at some satellite grands, my zone shoot etc. and I don't recall thinking to myself that the targets were extrordinarily high... well I guess the Zone was tough last year in the wind. I guess it just depends on where you are.

I don't like high targets, and I always thought it was the newer shooters that liked them high, not the better shooters. That's just my personal observation and may not hold true overall.

Shoot management doesn't have it easy, I think overall they try to do their best, and that is about all we can ask. Let's face it, you, Hap and myself could all be standing on the same post and each have a different opinion of the targets, and none of us would be wrong. Add to that the fact that many shooters really don't spend any time to understand what a legal target really is, or that setting targets to hit the T-Bar at 10 yrds doesn't mean targets on each field will look the same and you can see that management can get frustrated. Sometimes you have to forget about trying to be precise and just step back and look at them.