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Sub Veteran class question

5232 Views 45 Replies 22 Participants Last post by  Steve12
I shot at PSSA yesterday, a 198, along with many others. I am a B class , Sub Veteran
When it came time, 196 were in a shoot off for B , I had to shoot off in sub Veteran against AA shooter's.
So a 196 won B class and someone else won sub Veteran.
Is this correctly done
Why wouldn't a 198 win B class?
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I shot at PSSA yesterday, a 198, along with many others. I am a B class , Sub Veteran
When it came time, 196 were in a shoot off for B , I had to shoot off in sub Veteran against AA shooter's.
So a 196 won B class and someone else won sub Veteran.
Is this correctly done
Why wouldn't a 198 win B class?
Your 198 qualified you for a trophy in your declared category.

As such, according to the rules, for that event, you can only win or shoot off for your category trophy/trophies.

By declaring category you are indicating, in essence, that category is more important to you than class.

If that is not the case, then in subsequent tournaments I'd suggest that you not declare category.
 

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The program dictates how trophies are awarded.
If you signed up as a category shooter you were competing against others in your catagory.
You have the option to shoot as open.
The ATA rule book explains it better than I can.
Hope you figure it out because it can change depending on the program.
Example
If its class day and only class trophies are awarded then categories aren't recognized and you compete against all comers in the class.
Henry
 

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Your 198 qualified you for a trophy in your declared category.

As such, according to the rules, for that event, you can only win or shoot off for your category trophy/trophies.

By declaring category you are indicating, in essence, that category is more important to you than class.

If that is not the case, then in subsequent tournaments I'd suggest that you not declare category.
Thank you sir.
 

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Hope you figure it out because it can change depending on the program.
Example
If its class day and only class trophies are awarded then categories aren't recognized and you compete against all comers in the class.
Although it's entirely possible for an event to not have category trophies, it would be the unusual one that does that.

At the very least an event would probably have category champion trophies.

I'm speaking of tournaments/events that have All American points.

Local, or non-point shoots, can use whatever method they like to award trophies.

However, the awarding of trophies at point shoots is controlled by the rule book, not the program.

It may be reiterated in the program, but the rule book governs that topic.
 

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Just so everyone is clear, the tournament that is the subject of the OP's question was the Keystone Open at Elysburg.

The Keystone Open is typically an Other Major Tournament in the All American team list of shoots.

Therefore, the rules regarding category fallback would be as specified in the ATA rule book, Section X, D, 4 and 5.
 

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Thanks, I was having trouble finding it in the rules, didn't understand why a 196 trophies but a 198 wouldn't
Thanks for the explanations
This is my opinion of course but one I will offer. Also a sub vet.

At a large shoot such as you just participated, understand that when declaring a category such as you did you are most likely (pretty sure you would have) competed AAA shooters that are also declaring the same category with reason being they are vying for All American points.

You at a large shoot are probably better off not declaring a category in singles if you are not atleast a AA average shooter.
 

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If you declare category & your score doesn't win or tie in that category you are then able to claim class or yardage are you not?
Well, you'd be able to qualify for class, place or yardage trophies. That's covered in the rule book, Section X, D, 5.

Whether you can "claim" it would depend on the result of any shoot offs.
 

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Though other shoots MAY use their own fall back rules At ANY shoot where the ATA provides trophies OR All American points are at stake ,if you TIE for high score in category and are not successful in securing that title you CANNOT fall back into class .
 

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More than once at a large shoot I have had to explain this to an angry parent whose kid lost the Category shoot off but ,had a higher score in their class but couldn't fall back into high in class. They just couldn't understand why their kid shot a higher score in class but didn't get a trophy. The confusion arises because, at smaller shoots where trophies are NOT provided by the ATA or no All American points are given , the shoot management may use whatever fall back rule they wish. Declaring category at a large shoot is always a crap shoot. It may work for or against you but, at a really LARGE shoot it might be better not too unless you have a pretty high average .
 

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More than once at a large shoot I have had to explain this to an angry parent whose kid lost the Category shoot off but ,had a higher score in their class but couldn't fall back into high in class. They just couldn't understand why their kid shot a higher score in class but didn't get a trophy. The confusion arises because, at smaller shoots where trophies are NOT provided by the ATA or no All American points are given , the shoot management may use whatever fall back rule they wish. Declaring category at a large shoot is always a crap shoot. It may work for or against you but, at a really LARGE shoot it might be better not too unless you have a pretty high average .
I hate to say this but all the confusion goes along with so many categories the ATA has now.

It was pretty clear cut back when we didn't have all these Categories to contend with.

Just my observations.
 

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I'm a sub vet and no longer declare category Largely due to everything slide said. Some people feel winning cat is a big deal because you beat people in all classes. I didn't like that it could take me out of placing in the event. Last September I ran into a perfect example of this. During a Handicap championship I scored one less bird than the two people that tied for first. They shot off and the loser of that was the first place for their category. I didn't declare cat so I ended up runner up for the event. I feel better at second place over everyone in the event than first place out of a small sub group of the people that entered the event. To each their own.
 

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Categories are a great way to let lower scores win class or yardage. I just don't think SubVet is really necessary. And with Subvet and Vet being sometimes combined when attendance is low at local shoots, I don't want to compete against shooters in the Vet category because:

A) they have reached an age where age does diminish ability, and
B) they usually can shoot better than me anyway.
 

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And with Subvet and Vet being sometimes combined when attendance is low at local shoots
I've never seen that.

Probably because that's in violation of the note in Section IV, K of the rule book.

When there is no Sub Vet trophy, Sub Vets are included in the Open category.
 
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