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JBrooks


It's called handicap because the better you are the farther away from the trap house everyone you're required to shoot.


The system is broken for various reasons including those you've sited i.e. the earned yardage. If the system was working correctly you could do away with yardage trophies which are basically concessions to a broken system.


Creating a master class doesn't address th problems with the handicap system it masks them.


Jerry Hauser
 

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Phil,

As has been said before by people far more eloquent than I. The vast majority of shooters never make it past the 20 or 21 yard line and many of them could care less about changing handicap. And really all they care about is singles and their singles average. Until you can come up with something that will make singles as fair as handicap is today you will not find any sympathy or support from most shooters. Most will fight you if there is any kind of change that they feel will negatively impact their scores or make it tougher on them. I'm guessing that 90% would see any change as a threat. As long as we have a game the relies on an average, with such a significantly high importance on that average, and not wins, place or show the average shooter will consider any change at least a threat to that average and even may be seen as a way of distancing the average Joe from the top shooters even more than today and making it even easier for those few to continue to win. I think that the vast majority of shooters feel that the handicap system is far more fair than singles. Really all you are doing is trying to make it tougher for the top 1% to 2% of the handicap shooters at a very few shoots in a year that the majority of the ATA registered shooters never go to and could care less about.

Part of the problem on trapshooters is that there is a small vocal segment that is rabidly for a change no matter the consequences. They spout statistics and as usual with any ideologue they twist the statistic and try to spin it to support their viewpoint even when those statistics are taken out of context, have little to no relevance or are out and out wrong.

Phil truly I believe that you are really trying to help, but perception beats reality every time. I feel that you need to come up with a way to fix singles before you'll get any support for changes to handicap. I feel that we first need to get away from a dependence on average and I feel that is one area that sporting clays has it right.
 

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I do not like the mandatory reductions. I believe more people living in the snowy, wintery areas will begin to skip shooting in the bad weather rather than risk shooting bad and having to take a mandatory reduction-they will just wait until spring and summer to shoot. How about "three strikes" and you are reduced! You can turn down or take reduction #1. Same on reduction #2 but #3 reduction becomes a mandatory.
 

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If a shooter cannot maintain a 95% average at his assigned handicap yardage he will be moved forward until he can maintain that average, every 500 handicap target reviews, no 95% average he moves forward a yard, he may go all the way to the 18 yard line, it is that shooters problem he doesn't maintain a 95% average.



I was just using 95% as an example, it could be a lower average than that.

In golf if you are a scratch golfer you drive from the back tee off area, not so good from the closer tee off area.

Mandatory reductions should have been in the rules years ago.

1200 Fps shells are 3 dram, 1250 Fps are 3 1/4 Dram shells and it is that way in all my reloading books.

How that rule was changed is way beyond my comprehension, The BOD that made that change should have been OUSTED out of the ATA.


Gary Bryant
Dr.longshot
 

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A 2.5 yard reduction won't work. Read Pocatello's post, it makes sense. You have to penalize small shoot handicap winners with yardage regardless of their scores, or they would never get yardage. Short yardage Sandbagging would be rampant. Madatory reductions will break up buddy squads, and create some po'd shooters. Terry LA also hit it on the head. Northern winter shooters will stop shooting in bad weather to protect their yardage and average. Think nationally, and the conditions everyone shoots in. J Brooks didn't say how many shooters were at the shoots he got yardage at. I also got to the 27 in short order, but I attended small shoots my first few years. It was amazing how terrible short yardage handicap shooters shot just before the Grand when they needed targets. Think about it. Don't scare off 5% to keep 1% happy.
 

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I can't help but think that mandatory yardage reductions are nothing more than a scheme to try to force shooters up so that they ( at the shorter yardages ) might play more options for the few who have mastered the handicap system to take more money. Other than the hope of winning more money, why would anyone care what yardage someone else was on? When the few carry higher 27 yard averages than most shooters do on the 16 yard line, what other reason would/could there be.

Trapshooting is as much social as competitive. Take the pleasure of shooting with their regular squad away and soon there will be people finding many other things to do with their money. The real competition for trapshooting is to successfully compete with other recreational activities, ( it is recreation for a majority of shooters), for the ever smaller recreation dollar.

If there is a history lesson that has been learned the hard way by many organizations, it's do not mess with the bread and butter clients. If Phil wants to only shoot with those who think trapshooting is 100% competition, there's a place in trapshooting for that. At the same time, there should also be a place for people to shoot a 67% average from the 27 yard line, if that's what they like.

The handicap system is not broken, leave it alone.

Tomas
 

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I would like to see the handicap championship trophy given to the highest 27 yard score. The yardage trophies are great incentive to move up, but is it really the same if someone shoots a 100 from the 20 and someone shoots a 100 from the 27? When I introduce a new shooter to registered shooting, I brag up the fact that they can compete against the very best in this sport(in singles and doubles) and if they keep shooting well, can go head to head against the best handicap shooters, who are on the 27 (for now).

Here is something to think about- I'm a member of 4 clubs in NE Wisconsin, without counting the same folks more than once I calculate about 5 registered target shooters out of every 100 league/club shooters. 95% of the folks that would say they shoot trap don't shoot ATA events. How do we get those folks involved? Thanks, Dan Ehlers
 

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I can remember when I first started shooting how much money there was to be won shooting trap, and none in skeet. I attributed this to the fact that there were not as many perfect scores in trap as there were in skeet, thus people were more likely to gamble on themselves or others on winning, as it seemed anybody having a good day could win. It was exciting and fun to be around. Now, it seems as our sport has become skeet, with so many perfect scores and no money to be won.
I read that many people are not in it for the money, but enjoy it as recreation. They don’t want to lose their elite 27 yard status, ruin their averages, or change anything. I don’t understand this? I don’t understand taking pride in making the 27 when it is so easy that a 12 year old can achieve it, or even a first year shooting girl. I don’t understand 900 straight (or was it 1100?) for the national championship. I can’t pick my nose correctly 900 straight times, let alone break that many targets under the immense pressure of winning the national championship!! Yet there are those that can, and have done it. I also don’t understand getting targets I haven’t hit to level the field against those who have. I don’t want targets given to me because I am worse than others. I want to get better, but don’t see myself ever running 900 straight.
I don’t understand a sport where a 12 year old can go out and attain the highest level it offers and others think this is okay. Can you imagine this in hockey, football, baseball, tennis, swimming, golf, bowling, etc? I understand we are living in a feel good society, but to what point do we still feel good about ourselves for our “achievements”? I agree with one of the posters that it all begins at the 16 yard line. Something needs to change, unless we all are to become skeet shooters. Harder angles, faster birds, delayed pulls, less shot, moving sidewalks, multiple birds thrown, but only one that is a certain color counts, anything!
There are a lot of good ideas and smart people that are passionate about our sport and looking for ways to improve it in order for it to continue to prosper and live on to the next generation. I think we should all keep an open mind and listen to what others are saying and keep looking for that next challenge that will keep us coming back, and wanting to bring our friends. It should be fun, but not about perfection (we’re not gymnasts). How many 300 games are there in bowling? Yet it continues to grow. Go to a local bowling alley one weekend night and watch the kids having fun with the music and color pins. Few of them are good enough to compete on television, yet they keep going back.
I personally don’t have the answer, but admire those that keep asking the hard (and seemingly controversial) questions, striving to change this sport for the better. Please don’t give up. I have an 8 year old granddaughter I am looking forward to watching her kick your butts ?
 

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Why do you object to the easy solution. Angle and speed.

Ask why the so called "Pro Clinics" aren't that effective. They have been giving them for years and you would think that a bunch of their students would be at the top of the podium by now. Can't make them more competitive by instruction let's change the rules.

Face the fact that 100's of shooters don't have the time or the funds to become top competitors BUT they love to shoot and compete at their chosen level not the level that chosen by the "Experts". They are the backbone of the ATA and you want to run them off because they aren't competitive and you want to embarass them by making them stand on the 18 yd line. Some of you call them non-comptitive but in reality you are pissed because you can't get into their wallet.

I'm sorry but your theory that you have to be perfect to win any class is pure BS. Top classes maybe but the lower classes no, except at the grand. I attend to many shoots and see to many winners in the lower classes with far less than perfect scores. Go to the large shoots and expect to see the best in any class which is no different than most sports.

Scores to high then make the targets harder. Angle and speed.

One change don't give a punch for a score under 90.

Don
 

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Pat,
With all respect and deference to your experience in the ATA, I'm going to disagree with your contention that eliminating punches for winning small shoot H-cap events would make them "less significant". You still WON. You still turned in the highest Handicap score that day. How is that accomplishment made less significant simply because you have not been awarded a punch..?? Sadly, and my own experience is not unique...at many small shoots, bringing in the highest score may not mean that your level of proficiency exceeded that of all competitors that day. It certainly may not indicate that you have mastered your current yardage, and are ready to move back. Most shooters cut their teeth on small shoots. That's where they learn how to compete and hone their skills before making the investment in time and money to attend a BIG shoot. Let's not continue sending them off to their first Big Shoot experience "punched back" a couple of yards just because they refused to "play the game" and check the other scores before shooting at those small shoots.
 

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Yo Captain Rick, Where did I ever say that PA has a monopoly on professional 'baggers. 150 is alot-well, maybe not! Self esteem issues and their desire to take a trinket away from some little kid trumps logic. We all know who they are and even if reported to ATA officials nothing is ever done.

Old charlie was quite a character, an excellent shot, and how can we ever forget his bucket. My old buddy, Bill Hunsberger, was instrumental in encouraging me to shoot registered birds. This sport lost plenty of color when shooters like them left this world.

Sorry guys, the 17 and 18 yd. line didn't work before and won't work now-unless you put me on it!!
 
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The suggestion that JBROOKS put forward sounds like a very good solution.

Does anyone see any flaws in his idea?

What does Phil K think?

Pete Giddings - Canada
 

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A reminder.


The handicap system started becoming compromised when the BOD made the target easier in 1995/96. They not only gave in to shooters and gun clubs who were cheating by throwing the then illegal 34 degree angle target they did absolutely nothing to adjust the earned yardage table after the change was made.


Here we are in 2008 making suggestions to correct a broken system that was broken by shooters that could not compete. They made it easier to break a target so now we have a log jam at the 27 yard line made up in whole or part by shooters that got to the 27 by shooting mediocre, 2nd, and 3rd best scores.


If you want to start to fix the system begin by changing back to the 3-hole target.


Make it hard to get to the 27 not easy.


The folks that still resist this fundamental change are using the same argument that was used in 1995/96 namely to make the change, namely we will lose shooters if we don't make the change to an easier target. In the end they got what they wanted. 13 years later that change must be viewed as a complete failure.


The change back to a tougher format target is the most cost effective means to begin bring the handicap system back into balance.


Jerry Hauser
 

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colobiggun,

This year bowling will hold the "Nationals" in Las Vegas (Cashman Center) and the amount of 5 man teams already registered for the event that runs from February until August is over 15,000 and counting (they expect 20,000 + teams to compete) ... The Nationals are bowlings "Grand American" and teams from all over the world will compete ... They have a very simplified system for handicap, over 180 average and under 180 average and somehow they make it work and there are no people complaining about it ... There are 3 events, Team, Doubles, and singles and the payoffs will be huge compared to trapshooting being well into the millions, yet the entries are reasonable at $155 per man ... The ladies of Bowling will have their Nationals in Reno later in the 2009 calendar year ... This event is men only although there will be many ladies present as the event is taking place to add a little color and flair to the place ... This being Las Vegas, well what more can I say ..? Last year more than 45,000,000 people went bowling ... I bowl with one of the Ladie touring Professinals father on a league, her name is Shannon Pluhowsky, she is 25 years old been bowling since she was able to walk and now makes her living at it ... Unlike trapshooting there are a lot of companys who give full sponsorships to bowlers and they are on the television during the regular season ... Do your Grand Daughter a favor and buy her a bowling ball, bag, and shoes so she has something to fall back on ... You can't get into a bowling alley around here on a Saturday afternoon unless you are on a league ... WPT ... (YAC) ...
 

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Reading this thread is sad and funny . Some shooters think big shoots and the Grand is the only thing that counts . (it,s not) Some think a 1oz. load will fix every thing . If it,s so dam good shoot it and keep it to yourself . Some think we need more concrete even if clubs have no room to do it . ( that,s good thinking)

When the answer is so simple but will never work . It,s SPEED AND ANGLE ??

It cost nothing any club can do it and it,s fair to all . Now the reason it will never work . Shooters will go to the club he or she can break the best scores at So clubs will cheat. Clubs will and have cheated in the past to get shooters in the door . This is one of the reasons we now shoot soft targets . Some clubs years ago shot ATA targets and some SOFT targets .

Mandatory Reductions will do one thing KILL HANDICAP at most small clubs . A punch for only scores over 99 you have to be kidding .

Hope you all had a very good Christmas .
 

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I think JbBrooks idea of using your average for a punch and reductions is a pretty good idea. I still think you would have to punch for a win but make it, anything 96+.
 
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