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Rick ... you have been hooked and have been reeled in and now lay flopping on the ground.

CIM ... I bet Sparta is fantastic, everything is brand new, it aint crowded and it sounds like you easily found some long term reservations for your camper. Who wouldn't find that great? The problem might be going that one time. How far to the closest airport? How many hotel/motel rooms within a 20 or 30 min drive? How many places to eat near those motels/hotels? These are just some questions that a not yet retired shooter asks themselves when time/travel/lodging/meals is as important as shooting.
 

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CIM

I really hate to open this can of worms again but Amarillo offered the land and financial help but was rejected out of hand by the "committee".

ATA would have OWNED the site in a gun friendly state, in a city with all the amenities in abundance, international air port, Interstate highways, perfect background, thousands of motel rooms and restaurants, etc.

Not hear say I was there along with Jimmy Borum and several others when the ATA representitives refused to even discuss "amenities" or much of anything else as a consideration.

That said we have a great facility at Sparta but own none of it and Amarillo has removed the offer from the table.

Respectfully

Dick Lindsay, oldtex
 

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Old Tex - Go back and review the Amarillo proposal. Not to be critical but there was not enough money involved to even begin to build a shooting facility.
Illinois spent somewhere over $30 million not including land. We would have been over 20 million short.

Lumper the St. Louis airport is about 50 miles away. (A lot of us flew into
Columbus, OH because of airline connections, which was over 90 miles from Vandalia) No big deal. As to room there are hundred within 10 to 35 miles. But remember nice quiet driving conditions. No traffic, so not as inconvenient as some might like to say it is. Personally I hope to be back
again this year. - Jim
 

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Dick ... now that is a great question. So Amarillo made an offer that was by far the a much better deal than what could have been had in Sparta but it was rejected, I wonder why.

I might just think off the top of my head with no privy to any special information or topics of discussion by anyone of importance but in Texas the ATA would have owned and been financially responsible for the complex but in Sparta they could piggyback off of somebody else and not be financially responsible. Possibly they did not want to commit to what might have been a far better deal because of money they would have to spend instead of looking at the future of the sport? Just a thought or two and like I have said ... it is amazing that Neil has been very very very quite on all of this but we do have Mr Ireland speaking for the ATA.

MR Ireland ... I would suggest a postcard or small questionaire to membership and to all the supporting ranges of the ATA and ask them what they think of Sparta. Ask them what could make it better for them. Ask them why they did not show up? Ask the membership ... dont ask me or us ... we are a tiny number of people but the membership of the ATA is huge, aint it? If it were not for those members your represent and those members paying there dues there would not be an ATA so ask them. I've already pointed out the major drawbacks and problems as I you having with your commitment with Sparta.
 

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Just as a matter of interest, where and when did the policy of allowing anyone, maybe someone just in off the street, to enter the Grand?

This policy requires a facility bigger than needed to hold championship events for qualified, experienced competitors. The expense of building for participation by "everyman" is a burden to the devoted registered shooter who is saddled with the bills.

Changing this policy would have a dramatic effect on the finances of the ATA.
 

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Rick & Bob,

From where I live...if I drive east....you're in the Delaware River.....drive west....in the Chesapeake Bay...

And yep....the Senior Senator from Delaware has a habit of sticking his foot in his mouth....but the dumbasses still vote for him!

On a side note....we drove past the old Silver Lake Gun Club this past weekend and remarked how great the background is. Sure is a shame...great place to shoot. Also, made a note to myself about the land around the Dover AFB???

Don't forget, our state shoot is the Memorial Day weekend....

Curt
 

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I had the pleasure of attending the Grand at Sparta last year. I stayed in Collinsville which is 62 miles from the grounds; absolutely no problem getting there in under an hour. It took me a grand total of twenty min. to squad and cashier. Ever make it out of the entry bldg.at Vandalia in that amount of time? I found the staff to be courteous and helpful and the shoot well run. It may take some time for the shoot mgmt. to fine tuneit, but I think they did an outstanding job for the first time.

I was not stopped at the border by the Illinois State Police, beaten and had my guns confiscated. I listened to numerous complaints about what appeared to be an excessive police presence, but if those cops weren't there, you'd still be waiting to get off the grounds.

As far a heat, Illinois can be unbearable in the summer;so can Ohio. Both pale in comparison to the heat in Amarillo.

Let's give Sparta a chance. As the old aying goes don't be aprt of the problem, bepart of the solution.

Shoot well,

mooney
 

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trap2day, i said sparta was a very nice complex. only thing i complained about was you fowl mouth yankees that cant read and comprehend . if the grand was only opened to participants from the warm friendly states of the SOUTH, then it would be GRAND.
 

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Trap2day,

The reason that we didn't get the Grand to stay in Ohio is because of a thing called politics...Illinois offered the best deal money-wise. It makes me dissapointed that the Grand couldn't stay here, but I guess there's always time for a change. Not that I don't love the new facility because there is plenty to do there, but it just seems so lonely out there in the middle of Illinois farm country. At least Vandalia was vibrant and Dayton was a five minute drive down the highway, whereas St. Louis is an hour or more from the new complex. I really think the lack of choosing a location near a large city is going to bite the ATA in the arse a few years down the road and they are going to have to reconsider where they hold the Grand at. They really need to take a look at Ohio again because I have a feeling that the Cardinal Center is going to end up becoming more of a premier shooting center than Sparta...just a thought.

Evan Storch
 

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Orange_Hat

And keep in mind that OH can have 100 traps running with a years notice. And won't P.O. any taxpayers in the process.

And the targets are just as good and the place just as new. And not stretched out five times as far as Sparta. No skeetie houses either.

ALSO:

Cardinal Center will begin Saturday practice trap hours on March 17, 2007, from 10:00 a.m. to 4:00 p.m., weather permitting. We will maintain these hours until November 17, 2007 when we close the trapline for the season. There will be two to four trapfields set for practice only, at the cost of $4.00 per round of 25.

Rock

Jim
 

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The Rock,

That is exactly what gives the Cardinal Center a big edge over Sparta. It seems like there were too many traps compared to the amount of people using them out at Sparta, whereas with the Cardinal Center, they can expand as needed without over-doing it.

The targets are also nice at CC, no big wind gusts to worry about like at Sparta, and there are plenty of friendly people running the place as well as no excessive police force on-site like there was at Sparta. I feel more relaxed at CC, than I did at last year's Grand...just too many state troopers out watching what you're doing like you were going to start an armed revolution in the middle of Illinois.

Evan Storch
 

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Trap2day, now who are you calling ignorant? If you even knew anything then you would know that OHIO DID offer us land in OHIO but the BOD did not want it becasue they were set to go to Ill. As for other shooting there is only one TRAP SHOOTING. If this was such a good move and such a good savings then why is the ATA losing money at every shoot? Either the sport is on its way out or someone is pulling to much cash out of the till.

I hope the CC does do well and take things away from Ill. I for some reason like gun friendly state. They make me feel welcomed.
 

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Trap2day, sorry but it is true that Ohio did offer land to the BOD but they the BOD said no. Just like they did to TX and Vegas. The BOD were set to go and only go to Ill. You can look that upin the Trap and Field mag.
 

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Unruly is correct on one point. Ohio did offer us land not too far from Vandalia. It was a narrow section with many hills that ran North and South. It would have required the traps to face either East or West. Unruly might like to shoot into the Sun, but most of us do not like that.

Vegas did not offer us land. In fact, they did not offer us anything. Their presentation began with the statement that they were not in a position to do anything for us. Their second statement was that they wished to be withdrawn from consideration as a site for the Grand. Then they sat down.

The Texas proposal did not get presented. I was not a strong supporter of the Texas site but I have a feeling that it was not fully investigated by the site committee.

Pat Ireland
 

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It sounds like what was offered to the ATA would have costed ATA money to do something with but the move to Illinois was basiclly a free situation since it was somebody elses range and facility that the ATA would be contracting to use when needed.

Is that about correct?
 

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I don't recall that "Ohio land," Pat. There was some hilly park land mentioned as a possibility by there was never anything like an "offer" that I can recall.
 

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I don't remeber any Ohio land either! They did mention some to the NW corner of the airport but it was un-buildable as I remember plus it would have had a split trap-line.Plus it just wasn't big enough.

CIM
 

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CIM ... Pat remembers the offer.


From: Pat Ireland
Date: Thu, Mar 22, 2007 - 07:07 AM CT
Unruly is correct on one point. Ohio did offer us land not too far from Vandalia. It was a narrow section with many hills that ran North and South. It would have required the traps to face either East or West. Unruly might like to shoot into the Sun, but most of us do not like that.
 
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