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Discussion Starter #1
Just another stupid shell speed question. Been playing around with sub-sonic shells. They appear to help in a following wind, when the targets are being pushed down (flatter targets). Is this an optical dillusion or am I on to something.

Phil Berkowitz
 

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Phil, shell speed-smell speed, There is no excuse. You gotta point the gun correctly to get the target to break. Slow to fast, at the 16 there isn't going to be a noticable difference on where you have to point the gun to break the target. Just practice pointing the gun correctly and success will follow. Now if I could always keep my head on my gun.

Bob
 

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If it were that subtle, the wind would also "compress" the pattern. HA!

One fact is that the slower the speed, the tighter the pattern. Actually not a bad idea in the wind. Try some 8 1/2's if you are worried about them moving or flattening out. A flatter target has a smaller surface area presented so more pellets can help. Try 7 1/2's if it's blowing your pattern around from the side.


JT
 

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Actually, JY, a flatter target has a larger surface area presented. That's because the tilt of the target is very stable due to its rotation. When you think about it a bit, I'm sure you will agree. Start with extremes - real, real high, real low, and work out where you see the _least_ target.*

Neil

*It's real, real high, everything less presents more area to hit. And - heres' the point - the lower the better. Not that it makes any difference, of course.

Addendum. This is why I've never, ever, understood any of the "shows more face" stuff I read about here so often. I heard that people actually jacked up the front of handsets to "show more face." I couldn't see how that worked at all, so I asked Past-President Crausbay who knows about as much about hand-set Winchester traps as anyone still living, and he agreed with me that it could not possibly be true. The same with trap-in-the-Trap-house positioning which I am appalled to see that Pat Ireland agrees make a difference in the amount of "face" showing.

This should be interesting, a lot more interesting than some of the other fights I've mud-wrestled in here recently..
 

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Also with a head wind you must use faster shells. Remember tail wind slow shells - head wind faster shells. Cross wind use right or left handed shells.

Don
 

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Don--I can't get my loader to load those lefthand shells. Do you know how i can reverse the index on my Pacific loader to get some lefty's? No wonder those dang hard lefts are killing me. Matt
 

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I always carry 4 boxes of shells to the line just for this. It's especially necessary at places like Mason Michigan's MTA grounds.

1 box STS managed recoil 1100 fps 7/8 oz 8 1/2's for the tail wind shots.
1 box STS 3 dram 1200 fps 7 1/2's for head wind shots...
1 box reloads using a left folded wad petal for left blowing winds,
1 box reloads using a right folded wad petal for right blowing winds.
The bent wad petal causes the shot to have less resistance to the wind...

It's important to use Downrange XL-1 wads also as I've found the Neon green is not directionally affected by sunrise/sunset variables.

Jim Chapman

Hell, Michigan
 

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For effective pattern modification in crosswinds, the secret is in the choke tube. What you need is two identical chokes that have been shot at least 500 rounds. This process should impart considerable plastic build-up within each choke tube.

Follow this procedure:

Carefully mark each tube with a "L" or and "R" to correspond with the direction of the crosswind.

The "L" will represent a crosswind blowing from left to right while facing the trap house and the "R" will represent a crosswind blowing from right to left.

Next, select a 28 gauge or .410 bronze bore brush and chuck it into a cordless drill.

Holding the "L" marked tube firmly in your hand or held steady in a vise, remove the plastic buildup from the right side of the "L" marked tube and the left side of the "R" marked tube.

This procedure should alter the internal symmetry of each choke tube so as to impart at least half a pattern skew in the desired direction for each choke tube.

It is advisable to test each choke tube for the desired effect and, if necessary, relabel the "L" tube as "R" and the "R" tube as "L" as sometimes the results of this procedure are unpredictable.

Also, be advised that this procedure will probably not be effective for more than 100 rounds as the plastic buildup on the clean surface of the choke tube will negate the effect of the altered internal symmetry of the choke tube.

If the above procedure does not produce the desired effect one could possibly equip ones self with special shooting glasses that alter the line of sight in the direction of the crosswind.

A more permanent solution may be to port the barrel and choke tube on the desired side of the barrel so as to alter the direction of the pattern. It also seems logical that an over and under barreled gun should be modified with ports on the right side of the upper choke tube area of the barrel and on the left side of the lower choke tube area so as to be ready for a crosswind in either direction. Also, some additional non ported choke tubes should be on hand in the case of no wind or wind from behind or from the front.

A recent study by the Rand Corporation of pattern deflection when using steel shot in barrels with battery powered electromagnets affixed within one side of a Cutts Compensator that could be rotated for the desired direction of pattern deflection was inconclusive.

Ed Ward
 

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No, no, no, it's all in the loading. Load the shell into the barrel with the brand stamp on the shell head upright for high birds and upside down for low birds.
 

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Everyone knows that a 366 revolves counter-clockwise, thus distributing the heavier shot to the left. This troubled me for years, especially with left hand targets. Accidentally, I loaded some shells with the center plate a little loose. The shaking of the shot, between dropping and crimping stations realigned the pellets and every thing is fine. Just loosed the nut in the middle a tiny bit and see the difference! I have stopped using my PW since that day.
 

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Big M Perazzi (Jim)

As this is a relatively new procedure I don't really know how to price it. Simply removing the build up on one side of a choke tube seems like it could be done by an individual on his/her own time. Modifying barrels and choke tubes my porting only on one side is another matter.

If I were to go the porting on one side route, I think that I would first try it out on one of those inexpensive Russian or Turkish made over and under shotguns as they probably have softer steel and do not represent a major investment. Any competent gunsmith could probably do it on a time and materials basis once you convinced him that you were not totally nuts.

This thread is obviously a humorous exercise. However, sometimes these silly ideas bear fruit. Here is a true story of a silly idea that paid off.

My neighbor likes to bass fish and back in the 1970's he was in Florida worm fishing with a friend. They were bugging around as the fishing was slow and for some reason his friend heated a paper clip with a cigarette lighter and started boring holes in the tail of a large plastic worm. When this worm was fished, it started catching fish as the tiny holes in the tail trapped air and imparted a floating action to the worm's tail while the weighted front remained on the bottom. The friend patented the altered worm and sold the patent for $10,000. I still have a package of the original worms with the holes. They are called "Sure Hookers" and they work.

Ed Ward
 

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For a "BIG FEE" I am able and willing to tell you which way the bird is gonna fly out of the trap house and which way it will break. That way you will know which shell to load. A BIG advantage to you.

This service is guaranteed accurate and dependable. If you miss, it will be more likely due to your poor shooting ability and not to my forecasting services ability.

They call me the "whispering somethin...."
 

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Neil- I still disagree. The target we are shooting is elliptical. Changing the angle of an ellipse increases its area. The angle of our elliptical targets is determined by the angle of plate on a PAT Trap. If the plate is raised up, the target will also be tipped up and show more face (increase the angle of the ellipse).

Trap position in the house. First, we have to establish a standard of all targets being 10 feet high at 26 yards from the trap line and the center of trap machine is located 2 feet from the front lip of the house. Then if we were to move the trap five yards forward (out of the house) and set it to throw targets 10 feet high at 26 yards from the firring line, the target will be tipped up much more giving a larger area for us to shoot.

Take a piece of paper, or anything else that is flat and handy. Hold the object at eye level and flat where only the edge is visible. Then slowly rotate the object and see what happens to the apparent size of the object.

Pat Ireland
 
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