V10-What is generally lost when the subject of categories comes up is just what the Rule Book says about them.
The only tournaments where all the categories (Open plus the nine special categories) are required to be recognized are those tournaments where ATA trophies and/or AA points are awarded. This amounts to about 100 tournaments each year.
All other tournaments can use a reduced category "listing", or even forego offering any categories at all.
And, in the case of the 100 or so "Point" shoots, not all events need to give trophies for all the categories. They can use the reduced listing for non-championship events, and even non-resident awards in Championship events.
The ATA donates championship trophies for residents in the state/provincial shoots and the ATA Zone shoots and these trophies cover all the categories. The Satellite Grand clubs also purchase ATA trophies which cover all the categories.
The "reduced listing" is in the Rule Book (Section IV, K, Note). For example, "Where there is no Sub-Junior trophy, Sub-Juniors will be included in the Junior category", and so on.
Now the question then should come up, "But what about AA points in the instance where the reduced listing is used?"
I'm glad you asked that.
In the case where no Sub-Junior trophy is offered and the Sub-Junior wins the "Junior" trophy the AA system would consider the trophy to be a Sub-Junior trophy and the Junior category to have had no trophy and points would be awarded in accordance with the rules for each instance. And vice versa; if a Junior wins then the Junior category would use the trophy table and the Sub-Junior points would be apportioned based on there being no trophy in the SJ category.
So, if shoot management wants to reduce their trophy costs there is a way to do that.
I haven’t see a trophy fee on any of the shoots I’ve signed up for, so I’m not sure how it would be waived for a particular category of shooters. If you offered that to every shooter that wasn’t “competitive”- I think clubs would have a hard time buying any trophies- and it seems like they already do.how about waiving the trophy fee for 80+ shooters that just want to compete? I have about 400 of them. Not need any more trophies but still want to compete. i am 83
I'm assuming you're referring to small shoots.V10-
While all that you said is true- don’t you think it would be true that shoots that offer more categories and hence more trophies would be more attractive for the shooters that qualify for those categories? Meaning one club might get less shooters because another club offers more category (type) trophies?
Not necessarily, it could be two local clubs throwing against each other (I guess they don’t even have to be local to each other). Think about who would be affected- the smaller clubs that can or can’t afford trophies for the myriad of categories we already have. And think about who would be going to the shoots because of trophies for their category- it would be a fairly small percentage of 80+ year old shooters, but maybe enough to affect one club’s bottom line enough.I'm assuming you're referring to small shoots.
What you say may be true, but then doesn't that put the lie to the argument that shooters want fewer categories?
As with many things in the trapshooting tournament world, that's something that shoot management would have to consider.Not necessarily, it could be two local clubs throwing against each other (I guess they don’t even have to be local to each other). Think about who would be affected- the smaller clubs that can or can’t afford trophies for the myriad of categories we already have. And think about who would be going to the shoots because of trophies for their category- it would be a fairly small percentage of 80+ year old shooters, but maybe enough to affect one club’s bottom line enough.
Seems we are watered down with classes and categories. Makes the game too tedious to enjoy.I think it is wrong to have the ability to win one of two championship trophies (category shooters) for the price of one entry fee when the non catagory shooter pays the same price and only gets a shot at one championship trophy.
If you are shooting open class you shoot for champion or class. Shoot category and shoot for champion or category. Same chance at the same number of trophies.I think it is wrong to have the ability to win one of two championship trophies (category shooters) for the price of one entry fee when the non catagory shooter pays the same price and only gets a shot at one championship trophy.
I think that is about the best explanation I've heard.If you are shooting open class you shoot for champion or class. Shoot category and shoot for champion or category. Same chance at the same number of trophies.
I somewhat agree but a vet (or whatever ) can lose out on the event title because his score didn't earn the win but still win the vet title (not talking about fall backs) an open shooter if he does not win the event outright he is not getting a championship win plain and simpleIf you are shooting open class you shoot for champion or class. Shoot category and shoot for champion or category. Same chance at the same number of trophies.
Couldn't the open class shooter still win their class or yardage group?I somewhat agree but a vet (or whatever ) can lose out on the event title because his score didn't earn the win but still win the vet title (not talking about fall backs) an open shooter if he does not win the event outright he is not getting a championship win plain and simple
Category shooters have at times, two apples to bite at and have two ways to earn AA points
Yes but those trophies don't earn AA pointsCouldn't the open class shooter still win their class or yardage group?
Yep, an ATA shoot can be just like little league or soccer for the youth. Show up and get a trophy!or just give everyone a participation trophy
Yep, an ATA shoot can be just like little league or soccer for the youth. Show up and get a trophy!
Why not just put the Pat trap back in the 2 hole and let the cream of the crop list to the top, just like the old days?
The old timers tell me, back in the day, they could go to a shoot and win enough money to pay for their next few shoots. Those days are LONG gone. By worrying about shooters wanting the highest (and easiest targets) averages, I think the ATA make a mistake. BUT, I am just one old man sharing his opinion, and you know what they say about opinions........
Exactly .It was the clubs who wanted the softer targets ans narrower angles, because shooters whined and complained if they didn't get them. Back o the day everybody shot hand pulled targets you might get on the "P" or after the "L" targets were set in the 3 hole and went all the way to the stake. Today they are slower , narrower with minimum speed and angle and now we have enduro shoot offs and dozens of 100 straights on the board. I don't think shooters in general are any better . The greats of yesterday shoot the same great scores but could handle the tougher targets. Throwing softer narrower targets so most can shoot good scores is like lower the bar for PT test so more people pass it.This question has been brought up hundreds of times and the answer is the same. The 17 degree settings in the rule book are minimum settings. Any club that wants to can set targets an additional 10 degrees left and right and still be legal. It is the clubs telling the shooters they must shoot the minimum settings, not the ATA.
