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I recently read the names of the 2020 Olympic Trap Team and wonder how they are selected.

No, I'm not a Newbie trying to build my number of posts and I honestly don't think I'm being a Troll. I want to find out how the selections are made and if any of the top ATA shooters have a chance to represent the USA in the sport.

I located information about USA Shooting.org and their qualifying events last week in Arizona. I skimmed through the site and didn't notice any affiliation with ATA. There is mention, though, that any shooter can qualify if they're a member of USA Shooting.

Do ATA shooters participate with USA Shooting or "never do the twain meet?"
 

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I recently read the names of the 2020 Olympic Trap Team and wonder how they are selected.

No, I'm not a Newbie trying to build my number of posts and I honestly don't think I'm being a Troll. I want to find out how the selections are made and if any of the top ATA shooters have a chance to represent the USA in the sport.

I located information about USA Shooting.org and their qualifying events last week in Arizona. I skimmed through the site and didn't notice any affiliation with ATA. There is mention, though, that any shooter can qualify if they're a member of USA Shooting.

Do ATA shooters participate with USA Shooting or "never do the twain meet?"
Olympic Trap is not remotely close to ATA Trap. They both shoot at a clay target, but the game is entirely different.
MG
 

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Olympic trap are a much faster and harder bird. They are thrown at wider angles, higher and lower . 2 shots allowed per bird also .
We had a young lady at are club that made the Olympic on her second try , we have several that go to Colorado and try . Best way I can describe it is wobble trap on steroids.
We had a bunker to throw practice birds. But most cannot afford the constant practice required to be competitive.
 

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Larry i think nashville still has a bunker trap. It is a challenge. You will be right at home with your 7/8oz loads just load them a bit faster. Oh and the second shot by the time i could get back on it it was gone. Mike see u Sunday
 

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I recently read the names of the 2020 Olympic Trap Team and wonder how they are selected.

No, I'm not a Newbie trying to build my number of posts and I honestly don't think I'm being a Troll. I want to find out how the selections are made and if any of the top ATA shooters have a chance to represent the USA in the sport.

I located information about USA Shooting.org and their qualifying events last week in Arizona. I skimmed through the site and didn't notice any affiliation with ATA. There is mention, though, that any shooter can qualify if they're a member of USA Shooting.

Do ATA shooters participate with USA Shooting or "never do the twain meet?"
Comparing Bunker Trap to ATA Trap is like comparing high school Softball to professional grade Baseball. Some people have shot "wobble" trap and claim they have shot "international trap" The 2 are not anywhere close! My wife and I shot bunker for a couple of years. Other than the fact you shoot your targets at a "forward angle" the two have little in common. Bunker throws a a much harder and faster target. The targets are put together harder to withstand the greater spring pressure. The target appears before you from under ground . A bunker target can travel about 70 meters total and at a much greater speed! It can be a low "worm burner" or a very high "sky raker" and the angles are sometimes crazy wide True ,you get two shots but ,unless you are shooting "Lightning fast", the second barrel is often not effective. You also cannot spend time watching targets . After "each" shot the shooter moves to the next station and there a 6 ( not 5) shooters in rotation. The 6th shooter is always in motion behind the line moving from station 5 to station 1. Yes there have been on rare occasions where people could excel in both games but, they are exceptionally rare. I have know a FEW really good bunker shooters and all spent their time, money, and effort in one or the other. To train for and compete for a National Olympic spot requires great dedication, time and exhaustive effort . A bunker shooter certainly has to focus on that one discipline , and it AIN'T CHEAP ! To qualify for your countries Olympic team spot , you much also place in other International events ,and the travel cost are ASTOUNDING ! The travel time ,money, and effort, put into it keeps most people out of it unless they can get a sponsor.
 

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And, you better be shooting the right ammo. If your shells are tested and don't pass the screen test, you are DQ'd. This happened to a contestant several years ago. (factory shells)
I love shooting the game, but at my age it's just for fun. I have two good friends who just competed in Tuscon. One young lady and one gentleman shooting in the senior division.
Steve
 

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Its a tough game to shoot Bunker and I used to really like to shoot it, but I can't be bothered to drive to our nearest bunker location and I have enough trouble with ATA trap these days.
I would like to comment about Wobble trap. The correct distance if you go by the ABT international rules as shot in many countries is 70 meters +/-1 meter at 30 degrees +/- 2.5 degrees either side of center.. Up until 2015 the distance was 75 meters and the angles were 32.5 degrees +/- 5 degrees.
At a club I used to shoot at in the 1990's [now closed]where there were several shooters who were on and trying to get on the Canadian National Olympic squad they had 4 Wobble trap fields and they threw international targets at Olympic Distances and angles [45 degrees either side of center] and the targets were very challenging and almost as good as a bunker.
If you only set your Wobble trap to throw ATA distances and angles you are not even close to a bunker.
The shooters who make National Teams have my greatest respect for the time and dedication and ability required to get to that level.
Devonian.
 

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Do ATA shooters participate with USA Shooting or "never do the twain meet?"

In 2014, the “Twain did meet”, and Janessa Beaman had one of the greatest years enjoyed by a trapshooter while competing in ATA and International Trap the same year.

2014 | Finished as the 5th Ranked Woman in the World (Highest of any USA Trap Competitor) while winning more International trap medals in a single year than any USA woman trap shooter had in history up to that point.


2014 – World Cup Finals – Gabala, Azerbaijan - Silver Medalist (First and only USA woman trap shooter in history to medal at the World Cup Final at that time) (73/75)

2014 – World Cup Munich, Germany – Silver Medalist (73/75)

2014 - CAT Games – Guadalajara, Mexico – Silver Medalist (71/75)

2014 - CAT Games – Guadalajara, Mexico – Team Gold Medal Setting New USA Record and Exceeding the World Record (216/225) (Ashley Carroll, Caitlyn Weinheimer, Janessa Beaman)

2014 ESP Grand Prix – Granada, Spain – Silver Medalist (73/75)

2014 USA Fall Selection Match – Tillar, Arkansas – Silver Medalist

2014 USA Spring Selection Match – Kerrville, Texas – Bronze Medalist

⬜ 4th Ranked Woman in ATA All-Around Average for 2014

⬜ 2014 Autumn Grand
Class Doubles – Lady Winner - 98
Singles Championship – Lady Champion R/U - 199
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion -97
Handicap Championship – Lady Champion - 96
All-Around Championship – Event Champion – 392 (Only second time in ATA history a Lady has won the Event All-Around Championship at a Satellite Grand with Nora Martin in 1999 becoming the first)

⬜ 2014 Grand American
Negrini Class Singles – Lady 3rd
Sterling Glass Singles – Lady Winner
NRA Singles – Lady 3rd
Krieghoff Handicap – Lady 3rd
Rio Ammo Doubles – Lady Winner
Wenig Doubles – Lady 3rd
Preliminary High All-Around – Lady Winner
Preliminary Grand High Over-All – Lady 3rd
Grand International Event – Lady Winner
National Team Race – Lady Winner
Kubota Doubles – Lady 3rd
Clay Target Championship – Lady 3rd (200x200)
Grand High All-Around – Lady 3rd
Grand High Over-All - Lady 3rd -

⬜ 2014 Wyoming State Championship
Preliminary Singles – Lady Winner - 100
Class Doubles – Lady Winner - 95
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion - 97
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion - 384

⬜ 2014 Utah State Championship (First and only woman to break all 500 of the programs singles in Utah State Shoot history)
Welcome Singles – Event Winner - 100
Gene Majers Handicap – Lady R/U - 97
Bruce Allred Doubles – Lady Winner - 99
Class Doubles – Lady Winner - 98
Class Singles – Event Winner - 100
Sudbury Singles – Event Winner - 100
AA Preliminary Doubles – Event Winner (100x100)
Singles Championship – Lady Champion (200x200)
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion - 95
Handicap Championship – Lady Champion - 95
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion - 390
High Over-All Championship – Lady Champion – 1271/1300

⬜ 2014 Colorado State Shoot
Warm Up Singles – Lady R/U
Warm Up Handicap – Lady 3rd
Class Singles – Lady Winner
Preliminary Handicap – Lady 3rd
Class Doubles – Lady Winner
Dale Lebsock Handicap – Lady Winner
Singles Championship – Lady Champion
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion
Handicap Championship – Lady Champion R/U
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion
High Over-All Championship – Lady Champion

⬜ 2014 Arizona State Championship
Preliminary Handicap – Lady Winner
Singles Championship – Lady Champion
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion

⬜ 2014 New Mexico Championship
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion
Handicap Championship – Lady Champion
(These are the only events she shot at this shoot)

⬜ 2014 Southwestern Grand
Class Singles – Lady Winner
Browning Class Doubles – Lady R/U
Singles Championship – Lady Champion R/U
Federal Doubles Championship – Lady Champion R/U
Winchester Handicap Championship – Lady 3rd
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion

⬜ 2013 Western Grand
Class Doubles – Lady R/U
Singles Championship – Lady Champion
Doubles Championship – Lady Champion R/U
Handicap Championship – Lady Champion R/U
All-Around Championship – Lady Champion
 

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Comparing Bunker Trap to ATA Trap is like comparing high school Softball to professional grade Baseball. Some people have shot "wobble" trap and claim they have shot "international trap" The 2 are not anywhere close! My wife and I shot bunker for a couple of years. Other than the fact you shoot your targets at a "forward angle" the two have little in common. Bunker throws a a much harder and faster target. The targets are put together harder to withstand the greater spring pressure. The target appears before you from under ground . A bunker target can travel about 70 meters total and at a much greater speed! It can be a low "worm burner" or a very high "sky raker" and the angles are sometimes crazy wide True ,you get two shots but ,unless you are shooting "Lightning fast", the second barrel is often not effective. You also cannot spend time watching targets . After "each" shot the shooter moves to the next station and there a 6 ( not 5) shooters in rotation. The 6th shooter is always in motion behind the line moving from station 5 to station 1. Yes there have been on rare occasions where people could excel in both games but, they are exceptionally rare. I have know a FEW really good bunker shooters and all spent their time, money, and effort in one or the other. To train for and compete for a National Olympic spot requires great dedication, time and exhaustive effort . A bunker shooter certainly has to focus on that one discipline , and it AIN'T CHEAP ! To qualify for your countries Olympic team spot , you much also place in other International events ,and the travel cost are ASTOUNDING ! The travel time ,money, and effort, put into it keeps most people out of it unless they can get a sponsor.
Slide,

Very well said. Anyone taking up the ISSF Olympic disciplines to become world class has got to be a very particular animal. As well as having a lot of ability with a mental constitution like an ox to stay the frustrations of the learning curve, that person requires very deep pockets or someone backing them financially. In my day sponsorship was a very furtive activity because advertising products of supporting companies was prohibited. If you look hard enough, you'll find old photos of world class international shooters in the 70s and early 80s with advertising masked out with gaffer tape on their hats, shooting clothes and guns. A catch 22 situation existed. To get good enough to be recognised and get sponsorship you needed to be pretty darned good in the first place which cost a lot in terms of your time and money. Once a sponsor thought it worth their while in helping you that help mostly just amounted to guns and ammunition. Some countries had policies where for political reasons their best shooters were helped in other ways to increase medal tallies in ISSF World Championships and Olympic Games events. That was particularly true of the Soviet Union and East Germany. Some US shooters also benefited by virtue of well known military programs aimed at developing high standards in shooting. I'm reminded of a response given to one of my team mates when at Ft Benning he asked what psychological help USAMU shooters received and was told, "The only help they need is remembering where the key to the ammunition locker is kept!" Nowadays sponsorship has ceased to be a covert activity and national shooting bodies actively support their selected international competitors financially. International shooting standards have increased as a result of the funding and support provided to the best as you would expect since the best competitors are effectively "professionals" or "semi-professionals" instead of largely being the weekend warriors of yesteryear.

Jim
 

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Slide,

Very well said. Anyone taking up the ISSF Olympic disciplines to become world class has got to be a very particular animal. As well as having a lot of ability with a mental constitution like an ox to stay the frustrations of the learning curve, that person requires very deep pockets or someone backing them financially. In my day sponsorship was a very furtive activity because advertising products of supporting companies was prohibited. If you look hard enough, you'll find old photos of world class international shooters in the 70s and early 80s with advertising masked out with gaffer tape on their hats, shooting clothes and guns. A catch 22 situation existed. To get good enough to be recognised and get sponsorship you needed to be pretty darned good in the first place which cost a lot in terms of your time and money. Once a sponsor thought it worth their while in helping you that help mostly just amounted to guns and ammunition. Some countries had policies where for political reasons their best shooters were helped in other ways to increase medal tallies in ISSF World Championships and Olympic Games events. That was particularly true of the Soviet Union and East Germany. Some US shooters also benefited by virtue of well known military programs aimed at developing high standards in shooting. I'm reminded of a response given to one of my team mates when at Ft Benning he asked what psychological help USAMU shooters received and was told, "The only help they need is remembering where the key to the ammunition locker is kept!" Nowadays sponsorship has ceased to be a covert activity and national shooting bodies actively support their selected international competitors financially. International shooting standards have increased as a result of the funding and support provided to the best as you would expect since the best competitors are effectively "professionals" or "semi-professionals" instead of largely being the weekend warriors of yesteryear.

Jim
Pretty much sums it up. Very few have the time, talent, and dedication to pursue the dream of shooting on a national team, much less the FUNDS . When my wife and I shot bunker we were living in LA. and the closest bunker at the time was Ft. Benning ,GA. We would make the drive to attend clinics and shoot in competition there. The only help we got was a break on target fees for Military members when we shot in Military competitions . I was a full time reservist then and my wife was an active reservist. We approached the head of the Air Force team at the time but, were told since we were "reservist' ,the Air Force would offer no help. My wife was actually approached by the Army coach at the time about the possibility of trying out for a women's spot on the US team . At the time her scores in bunker were slightly higher in a couple of competitions than the lady USAMU team member at the time. It all came down to TIME and MONEY. It would mean a very heavy financial responsibility which we simply could not meet without some kind of help. It would also require a lot of TIME which we were short on as well. In the end there are very FEW who have the talent, time , personal drive ,and financial stability to make it on the team. There are probably some over looked young shooters who simply are not financially able or have the TIME required to pursue the dream and sadly the US misses out on their talents . I have known Lloyd Woodhouse for over 50 years and long before he became either the Air Force coach or, the international USA coach for a time. In fact Lloyd coached me on my very first rounds of trap and skeet I ever shot while I was a young student Airman at Chanute AFB. I had not talked to him for a long time and called him last year. In our phone conversation we discussed how hard it is for young shooters to pursue this . You are correct in the statement about how ,for much too long , the US committee forbid commercial sponsorship of US team members (EVEN BEFORE) they were selected for Olympic competition, while OTHER countries both allowed and ENCOURAGED it ! That certainly wasn't FAIR but, I guess life has proven to to be unfair very often !
 

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Pretty much sums it up. Very few have the time, talent, and dedication to pursue the dream of shooting on a national team, much less the FUNDS . When my wife and I shot bunker we were living in LA. and the closest bunker at the time was Ft. Benning ,GA. We would make the drive to attend clinics and shoot in competition there. The only help we got was a break on target fees for Military members when we shot in Military competitions . I was a full time reservist then and my wife was an active reservist. We approached the head of the Air Force team at the time but, were told since we were "reservist' ,the Air Force would offer no help. My wife was actually approached by the Army coach at the time about the possibility of trying out for a women's spot on the US team . At the time her scores in bunker were slightly higher in a couple of competitions lady USAMU team member at the time. It all came down to TIME and MONEY. It would mean a very heavy financial responsibility which we simply could not meet without some kind of help. It would also require a lot of TIME which we were short on as well. In the end there are very FEW who have the talent, time , personal drive ,and financial stability to make it on the team. There are probably some over looked young shooters who simply are not financially able or have the TIME required to pursue the dream and sadly the US misses out on their talents . I have known Lloyd Woodhouse for over 50 years and long before he became either the Air Force coach or, the international USA coach for a time. In fact Lloyd coached me on my very first rounds of trap and skeet I ever shot while I was a young student Airman at Chanute AFB. I had not talked to him for a long time and called him last year. In our phone conversation we discussed how hard it is for young shooters to pursue this . You are correct in the statement about how ,for much too long , the US committee forbid commercial sponsorship of US team members (EVEN BEFORE) they were selected for Olympic competition, while OTHER countries both allowed and ENCOURAGED it ! That certainly wasn't FAIR but, I guess life has proven to to be unfair very often !
I seem to recall the USAF had an international skeet and trap facility at Lackland AFB in the 60s which produced a number of fine American shooters before I ever heard of Ft Benning. Did the USAF's interest in international competition fold?
 

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At their height, the AMU program along with the USAF were the places to be. The Navy had a small program. And the key to the ammo locker was important but also the motivation factor of Vietnam. My understanding is that the AMU had record days and a 94? average was required to stay in the unit.
And the funding streams are very flexible. Pelielo of Italy is a policeman. Many of the Czech shooters are army or police. Shooters in the Arab countries are fully supported in a sport that that is commensurate with their religion.
At one time USA Shooting had a program whereby an athlete could establish an individual fund that they could solicit funding for and draw from for expenses much as other sports have as I understand. I mean Carl Lewis had his own home and drove a Porsche and was within IOC rules. Maybe USA Shooting needs to look into this as part of their responsibilities as NGB.
It kind of ran hot and cold, but there was a bunker in Martinez, Ca. and in El Monte, Ca. in the '60's. I'm not sure but there may have been one in Renton, Wa.
 

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I seem to recall the USAF had an international skeet and trap facility at Lackland AFB in the 60s which produced a number of fine American shooters before I ever heard of Ft Benning. Did the USAF's interest in international competition fold?
Yes the Air Force producred some great shooters both international shooters and some All Americans. Lackland had a great facility , and an international Bunker. I shot there a few times. It is LONG GONE and has been closed for many years now! Since I retired in 1995 and I am out of the loop , and really I don't know if the Air Force even has a team now. If so they are not advertised much and it's not what it once was. The Obama PC years were hard on the Military clubs and shooting organizations. I last heard anything about the Air Force team in the late 9os. Lloyd Woodhouse was their leader and coach until he took a job Coaching the USA team after his retirement from the Air Force. It then went to Terry Howard who wound up a coach at Trinity University after his retirement but ,he got fired from that job. Word on the street is he was let go for improper relationships with one or more of the young ladies on the team. Anyway , After Howard retired from the Air Force , I don't know who took over the reins of the AF team . Anything I could find from google about the Air Force team was secthy to say the least.
 

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Yes the Air Force producred some great shooters both international shooters and some All Americans. Lackland had a great facility , and an international Bunker. I shot there a few times. It is LONG GONE and has been closed for many years now! Since I retired in 1995 and I am out of the loop , and really I don't know if the Air Force even has a team now. If so they are not advertised much and it's not what it once was. The Obama PC years were hard on the Military clubs and shooting organizations. I last heard anything about the Air Force team in the late 9os. Lloyd Woodhouse was their leader and coach until he took a job Coaching the USA team after his retirement from the Air Force. It then went to Terry Howard who wound up a coach at Trinity University after his retirement but ,he got fired from that job. Word on the street is he was let go for improper relationships with one or more of the young ladies on the team. Anyway , After Howard retired from the Air Force , I don't know who took over the reins of the AF team . Anything I could find from google about the Air Force team was secthy to say the least.
While attending the NSSA World shoot in 1975 I did try to find out whether there were still any shooting facilities at Lackland AFB but without success. I did visit the adjacent open air aircraft park because of an interest in aviation. On display was an aluminum colored B-24 "Liberator" looking rather sorry for itself. Many years later it was dismantled and shipped to the UK where it was restored to pristine static display condition and is now in the "American" hangar at the Imperial War Museum at Duxford in Cambridgeshire. My next-door neighbor's son was a volunteer at Duxford and worked on the B-24 restoration project. I received an invitation to go and see what was going on and meet the American project manager who was in overall charge. The restoration was a painstaking affair and the end result is a piece of history in perpetuity.
 

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The Air Force has a small program I think some shells, permissive tdy and maybe entries.
They do have an elite athlete program which allows select, high performing athletes more support although they still have their regular jobs.
 

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At their height, the AMU program along with the USAF were the places to be. The Navy had a small program. And the key to the ammo locker was important but also the motivation factor of Vietnam. My understanding is that the AMU had record days and a 94? average was required to stay in the unit.
And the funding streams are very flexible. Pelielo of Italy is a policeman. Many of the Czech shooters are army or police. Shooters in the Arab countries are fully supported in a sport that that is commensurate with their religion.
At one time USA Shooting had a program whereby an athlete could establish an individual fund that they could solicit funding for and draw from for expenses much as other sports have as I understand. I mean Carl Lewis had his own home and drove a Porsche and was within IOC rules. Maybe USA Shooting needs to look into this as part of their responsibilities as NGB.
It kind of ran hot and cold, but there was a bunker in Martinez, Ca. and in El Monte, Ca. in the '60's. I'm not sure but there may have been one in Renton, Wa.
While I do not know its age, the Renton bunker is still alive and well.
 

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The Renton bunker has updated their machines and is a great place to shoot. Hillsboro Oregon is a fantastic field as well
 
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