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Scorers that lack training

9K views 95 replies 52 participants last post by  b12 
#1 ·
My handle is based upon my entry into trapshooting. First as a darn good loader and then a darn good puller and scorer. Wit the Winchester machines of yesteryear, I can recall gently tapping a clay on the edge of the electric motor. It had a distinct sound if it was cracked somewhere, and that would get tossed rather than thrown and disrupting the harmony of the shoot. When loading doubles, I would make sure the targets were not only whole, but placed on the arm the same way each time for consistency. When pulling, I was able to pull, keep score, and call targets lost in a volume where there was no doubt the squad and individual shooter knew it was missed.
Now with the auto traps, there is less hands on, but now as for as the score keeps go...What happened to the idea of pride in your work. All they have to do is watch and keep score. However, I notice many do not call missed targets consistently, but they are certainly noted.
It is perhaps a personal flaw, but I'd rather not wonder if the scorer is on the ball or inept. As much as i want to concentrate on target, target, target... IT BECOMES AN UNNECESSARY Distraction if you have to wonder if the scorer is competent and on the ball. Yeah, some shooters miss the target and inexplicably glare at the scorekeeper, but that is their character flaw. Shooters can be really nice and polite or jerks, but the scorer needs to be the consistent one on the squad. Besides never missing what can be done?
 
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#2 ·
Simply realizing that the pressure on these kids (most are young) can be overwhelming at times - can and will go a long way to understanding their shortcomings. While I don't fully understand it, I believe it's a subconscious behavior some cannot help when making a loud gesture (calling a lost target) during a time of intense concentration. As scoring becomes more natural, so will their calling of lost targets. The trick is to get someone to stay in that seat for more than a couple weeks.
Recently we shot in some pretty heavy, driving snow and the score keep was having a hard time seeing pieces, we saw three in one round. When Bill turned back to check the sheet after our round I expected him to let her have it but instead said, "it's okay sweetie, we're having a hard time seeing them too".
I guarantee that went a million miles further than telling her she's blind.
 
#34 ·
love helped out at several clubs through the years and did exactly what you suggested. I took several flats of shells and some 303s and 870s and had them come out on a Saturday to shoot and score for each other. The kids had a ball, some got to shoot trap for the first time grilled some burgers for them and everyone had a ball!! It cut WAY down on the aggravation when league's started and we got a lot of kids who came back and worked several more Summers.
 
#5 ·
As in any job, even temp jobs, there are always some folks that are better than others. It has been a while since I shot registered, but I will say if my focus is on the scorer instead of the target, my mind is in the wrong place. Overall the vast majority of scorers are trying to do their best. As pointed out, gaining experience and having time in the scorers chair is the path to better scorers. I will also say the guys I usually shoot with help a scorer having a bad day by actually listening to the scorer and getting any errors corrected immediately. I have witnessed some of my squad mates offer encouragement and helpful scoring tips to the less experienced scorers.
 
#6 ·
Well now it’s not always kids that are doing the scoring and the shooter is not always right. I’m a geezer but still have pretty good eyesight and I can guarantee that I am focused. I score some at my local club. I’ve had older shooters that swore they saw a tiny piece drift into the heavens and God forbid that you argue with them. I’ve also seen kids that would look my way, grin, shrug their shoulders and move on. That one lost target might have put them out of the money too. I think it comes down to the integrity of the shooter and the scorer. If they are on the same page before they start, that would be a big help. An idea that I have been exploring locally is to tell the squad it takes two people to change a score. I’m willing to change a score but only if two or more people agree that I was wrong. No let’s be clear here, I’m speaking of a small local shoot. The big ones I figure would be different and I have no experience there, so I can’t speak to that.
 
#7 ·
Integrity is right! Hate to say it but I have seen that "two or more to change call" abused more than once on league night. But there is no point in arguing.
 
#9 ·
Not to start a shit storm, but I think every shooter should try scoring. It would help educate shooters that have never scored, what scorers go through. It is not easy or fun in My opinion, and takes concentration, all the time. Trust Me, as I have scored and am just too prone to mistakes. Especially, on a fast squad of doubles shooters, with no ref.
 
#10 ·
Everyone has had an opinion on scoring, and there have been several threads about this. Most of the time you see youth scoring is at ATA registered shoots along with the groups of traveling scorers/loaders. For ATA shoots, most of these young scorers are being paid $10./hour and given a lunch. Some clubs are better than others training these scorers. I believe the scorers ARE intimidated by the age of the shooters and some with their gruff voices. If I am squad leader, I ask the scorer to call out losses loud enough for the squad to hear, and most of the time that works. If there is any discrepancy I stop the squad until we have straightened everything out, then we shoot again. As Wad said be nice to these young scorers. They are the future of shooting. I just wish the ATA would have a course or plan to train scorers across the ATA system that ANY scorer would have to complete. In the age of computers, this could be done with "computer based training" and the scorer would be issued a certificate on completion. When I was an aircraft technician, we completed many courses for requalification on computers using pretty good graphics.
 
#11 ·
Puller and Sandbager, welcome to the Forum. I have been shooting for over a decade and when I first started it bothered me that the scorer called out "lost" when I missed a bird. I know I missed it, you don't have to rub it in I thought. Then I realized he was doing it for my benefit. I have been at shoots where they call everything and some where they don't call anything. I think what needs to be established is the "Club Standard". Then train all that score, this is how it is done. I was also taught that whoever leads off on station one is the person to correct the scorer on a hit, chip, or miss. Othesr can comment but the lead is the decision maker. I have also found that most scorers are shooters or have shot so they know what is going on. If a scorer has never shot, the club should offer a time for all new scorers to come and shoot a round on them. Lend them a gun if needed. I am not sure about your clubs but we have a few younger shooters that are becoming good shooters that know and follow the rules. They even score from time to time. If we want new/younger shooters to join our ranks, let's teach them and not yell at them. Be an ambassador for your club and the sport.
 
#20 · (Edited)
I was also taught that whoever leads off on station one is the person to correct the scorer on a hit, chip, or miss. Othesr can comment but the lead is the decision maker.
Dive Coach, I believe the above is totally 100% incorrect for any type of registered Trapshooting I've ever heard of, and nothing like you mention is part of the official rules of ATA or PITA.
In fact, whenever anyone mentions this long-existing fallacy about the Squad Leader, I always ask them: "What happens when it's the Squad Leader's own target that's in dispute? How could the Squad Leader possibly be allowed to autonomously be the 'decision maker' on his own target?"
 
#14 · (Edited)
Have you seen the latest printed programs that say “No verbal abuse will be directed/tolerated at the scorekeepers?” I like that!

Watching other people shoot trap is boring. Some score keepers are glued to the chair for a couple hours in the hot sun. I have watched some try to get s bite to each between sub events.

And one final thought, some longtime trapshooters are terrible at scorekeeping.

No need for hostility. It’s just a weekend sport.
 
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#21 · (Edited)
Our club has a couple hour class for our new loaders/scorers. Most (not all) are high school kids. They, just like everyone else, have their own (developing?) personalities. I think it can be quite intimidating for the novice to step up and act as an authoritarian in a situation they know nothing about.

We do range safety and scoring. Then we go outside and have squads shoot, with intentional fail to fire thrown in. That way, they get to enforce a rule and enunciate it clearly. A few reminders that “we’re all wearing hearing protection” generally helps. Deficiencies are corrected in a learning environment, not a competitive environment.

As an executive board member, I have advised several of our scorers that I will stand for NO BS from any person that attempts to be confrontational with them.
 
#23 ·
I was on a squad in Tucson recently shooting doubles and a guy next to me broke dead pair. Scorer called “dead pair”. As I went to take my shot the shooter gal to my right yelled out “he missed that second bird it’s a loss “. She did this TWICE and after shooter argues she told everyone she is a delegate and what she says goes, “I know the rules” she cried out. The young shooter just took it. He had both pairs dead but were scored dead lost. Btw this gals nick name was “tiger” and she is known for this. Perfect example of old coots running off the youth shooters.
 
#24 ·
Don't know who "Tiger" is, or care who "Tiger" is..................If I were on that squad, everything would have come to a screeching halt and shoot management called over to correct the situation! The "scorer" has final say unless a protest is lodged..........NOT the shooters. I have shot with ATA Presidents and Delegates, and when shooting, there is NO rank on the line, they shoot and have lost targets like anyone else, they shoot for enjoyment, not to be the squad referee
 
#25 ·
Afraid I can't add much new to the discussion because you guys have really covered it, but will just say that like most, I've been on squads with great puller/scorers and ones that were a nightmare. Don't learn much from the great ones, but based on the bad experiences I would say that to get a good puller/scorer it would best if:
1. puller/scorer shot a round or more. Let them see how that side works and get them a little more invested in the game.
2. shooters all scored/pulled a few times - nothing better to humble you than to pull/score for a fast doubles squad or even faster singles squad - nearly all the complainers I've run into were ones who probably never did it - or not much.
3. training for puller/scorer - not just the bare minimum, but put them through a pre-event tough squad with all the possible problems. There are only a handful of problems that come up most frequently - so let them experience it pre-event and educate them on how to fix it or deal with it. Training is key.

As tough as it is to remain calm when things are going bad - I've always found that being helpful and understanding of the scorer works wonders. And if you find one that just doesn't care and is creating a problem without trying to get better - shoot management should know. But don't run to management just because a kid screwed up one time.
 
#30 ·
I've been on both sides of this discussion (ATA life member--- 78 years old --eyes not what they were in years gone by) have done far more scorekeeping. Have always told shooters & management if\when I'm doing something unacceptable as a scorekeeper ask for a different one, I'm not perfect (never was) & I am aware of that. I will not be offended, sorry yes because I try to do my best. And yes I will\have change(d) my call if 2 or more (not the shooter) dispute my call. Ross Puls
 
#32 ·
Amazing that this would happen to any shooter. The “Tiger” you mentioned is the owner or manager of the Casa Grande Trap Club. You would think someone who is an owner and a Delegate would possess a better understanding of registered trapshooting. I feel bad for the shooter and can’t help but wonder what his thoughts are regarding the sport, the club and the ignorant Delegate
 
#36 ·
Just a question...have YOU ever took time to hold a class with scorers before a shoot and go over the two or three rules that most occour?? What the responsibility of a good scorer is?? What a good squad leader should do?? What to do when things get off track?? and so on...
I have, and we do (Mississippi) the day before before every State shoot. It works! and it give the scorers confidence to know that someone has their back.
Lots of darn good, smart, interested kids out there.
Try it, you will like he results.
Jim
 
#56 ·
Just a question...have YOU ever took time to hold a class with scorers before a shoot and go over the two or three rules that most occour?? What the responsibility of a good scorer is?? What a good squad leader should do?? What to do when things get off track?? and so on...
I have, and we do (Mississippi) the day before before every State shoot. It works! and it give the scorers confidence to know that someone has their back.
Lots of darn good, smart, interested kids out there.
Try it, you will like he results.
Jim
Amen Jim, common sense is the best remedy.IMO
 
#37 ·
All the scorers at my club are between the ages of 14 -18 years of age. They were all trained to score by one of are veteran members. They all speak clearly and call lost when a target is missed and call end and rotate when it’s time to move. They call end and all out at the end of the round. They all now the failure to fire rule. I have heard lots of shooters praise are scoring kids for there great work.


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#38 ·
Trying to get to 50 quick, eh? I grew up working at a Trap range also, and was trained in the proper way to score, and ATA rules pertaining to scoring. I have trained many kids (and a few adults along the way) in scoring, and will be doing it this coming Monday when the kids start their HS shoots. I'll call 'em as I see 'em, it's rare I miscalled, and even rarer with voice operated systems.
As for cracked targets, I'd save them up in a special pile and when certain shooters came to the line (One of our traps had a hole in it, you could see out. ) slip one in on them (never league shoots, only practice) and let the hilarity ensue. :saevil:
 
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