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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Went to a shoot this weekend...program shows trophies for "Winner Each Class AA, A, B, C, D; Lady, Sub-Vet, Vet, Jr"

Here is a snippet of the scores list relevant to the question, shooter A was awarded B class winner...which is strange.

Shouldn't shooter A have won Veteran Class? Shooter B if they lose to shooter D in Junior Class they should win B class? And I'm guessing B class wins nothing? Nothing was stated on the program from back to class...

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If you win or tie for your category, you are only eligible for the category win. You do not fall back onto class for category ties, usually, due to ATA rules the last few years. If you do not have a winning/tie score in category, you fall back to class. It see your point, the Junior score of 194 did not win or tie in the class, and had the highest class B score.

edit: there is an exception for chair shooter category. Chair shooters still get to pick, but must do so before any shutoffs begin.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
If you win or tie for your category, you are only eligible for the category win. You do not fall back onto class for category ties, usually, due to ATA rules the last few years. If you do not have a winning/tie score in category, you fall back to class.
Do you fall back if you lose the category? Such as shooter B lost to shooter D for Junior category by 1 bird?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Shooter A should have won Veteran Category (shoot had this shooter winning B class)
Shooter D should have won Junior Category


Shooter B should have won B class then right? Since he outright lost Junior category he goes back to class for B class win?
 

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Do you fall back if you lose the category? Such as shooter B lost to shooter D for Junior category by 1 bird?
Yes, shooter B did not win or tie his category, so he was eligible for class/yardage trophies. Only if you are eligible for a category trophy are you forced to compete for the category trophy and the category trophy alone. I do not know why shooter B did not get the class win.

Thats how lower scores get class and yardage wins. The higher score ties for category, and the higher score loses category in the shootoff and does not fall back to class/yardage. The rule makes wrapping up a shoot a lot easier, when all those class/yardage wins are not dependent on a category shootoff.

Years ago there was fallback to class/yardage. I remember shooters being given the option of which they wanted once the scores were in. Allowing the shooter to pick was stopped because shooters would make decisions to block shooters they didn't like, hurt shooters they were competing against for points, avoiding shooters they decided were too hard to beat in a shoot off, and because it made wrapping up a shoot complicated.

edit: there is an exception for chair shooter category. Chair shooters still get to pick, but must do so before any shootoffs begin.
 

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Shooter A should have won Veteran Category (shoot had this shooter winning B class)
Shooter D should have won Junior Category


Shooter B should have won B class then right? Since he outright lost Junior category he goes back to class for B class win?
Shooter A shoots off for Veteran category win, and that is the only trophy the shooter is eligible for. I seen (based on the scores listed) A class won by a score of 191, because all higher class A scores were tied for a category win and compete for the category win only. Assuming there were trophies for all those categories, and they were not combined in some way.
 

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The shoot program should specify how category/class ties are broken and how awards are decided. The rule book states that the fall back to class system is for shoots that are awarding trophies provided by the ATA. While most clubs follow the ATA’s guidelines (and I think they should), no club is required to concerning non-ATA awards.
 

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  1. Any shooter who has declared a special category at the time of classification and whose score qualifies for any trophy in his/her declared category, will compete for the category trophy and not for place, class or yardage group. If there is no Event Champion Trophy, a declared Category shooter will take the Category Trophy and may not fall back to the Class Trophy.
  2. Any special category shooter whose score does not qualify for a trophy in his/her category, may compete for place, class or yardage group trophies.
 

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Pardon or not...this is another example of the confusion about making everyone a winner. Let's just give every participant a trophy. I'm in favor of a category recognizing the top shooter in, for instance, left-handed, bald-headed, Protestant, under 5-foot 9.

The pride at beating the worst shots in the ATA for the class C and D honors always strikes me as amusing.
 

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Pardon or not...this is another example of the confusion about making everyone a winner. Let's just give every participant a trophy. I'm in favor of a category recognizing the top shooter in, for instance, left-handed, bald-headed, Protestant, under 5-foot 9.

The pride at beating the worst shots in the ATA for the class C and D honors always strikes me as amusing.
What, no women, children, and geezer trophies?
 

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AS per ATA rules, category/class, unless otherwise stated, the junior wins class B with 194. The 2 veterans are tied At 196, class B veteran is not eligible to fall back to class should he lose the shoot off or coin flip.
 

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I think this requires some follow-up questions. Are these all of the scores from the event? It looks like the photo may have cut off some scores above which may explain everything.

And were ATA trophies OR All-American points involved? If not, that could explain how the club was able to handle the fall-back differently.
 

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The ATA only regulates trophies when All American points are awarded for a shoot. If the trophies are similar, I would award the categories and then classes. But a lot of small shoots the trophies are not even close to similar so they award class then categories. I never liked it when the veteran shooter got 1 box of shells but another A class shooter with a lower score got 10 boxes since they got A class.
 

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Do you fall back if you lose the category? Such as shooter B lost to shooter D for Junior category by 1 bird?
Depends. If it is a shoot where all american points are given and/or The ATA provides trophies then NO . If you lose a category after a tie score then you cannot fall back. However at shoots where this does not apply . The club may write their own fall back rules.
 

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Unfortunately this happens on the local club level when there are no ATA trophies or AA points awarded. The local club can make their own rules. I believe the ATA should make all clubs abide the rules related to placement and trophies. This is only setting people up for just what happened in the instance of the original poster. It works just as bad the other way when people show to a shoot and ATA rules are followed - parents can't understand why little "johnny" did or didn't win something. ATA rules for every registered shoot and read the rule book!!!!
 

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Without more information, this appears to me to be a small club class event, category is often listed but not a factor and probably not a factor in this event. Tie-breakers can be dictated by the club; my small club uses reverse runs to resolve ties.
 
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