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We have a subjunior All American at our club. His SCTP team includes a a couple inexperienced shooters, and all the other teams are similarly balanced, so that the competition is fun and exciting for everybody. The original poster used the word sandbagger as a generic term, which it's not. Neither is it cheating. What it is, is poor sportsmanship. It defeats the whole purpose of the AIM and SCTP programs, and it was permitted by adults who should have known better.
 

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We have a subjunior All American at our club. His SCTP team includes a a couple inexperienced shooters, and all the other teams are similarly balanced, so that the competition is fun and exciting for everybody. The original poster used the word sandbagger as a generic term, which it's not. Neither is it cheating. What it is, is poor sportsmanship. It defeats the whole purpose of the AIM and SCTP programs, and it was permitted by adults who should have known better.
So your saying that if a TEAM builds their skills and becomes BETTER THAN AVERAGE they have sub moral parents and have poor sportsmanship? I am one of those "Parents" that belive with hard work, training, and dedication achieving the WIN is the WHOLE Point.

What is the point of the hard work, training, and dedication if your chastised for the win.

AM I WRONG?
 

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Sounds to me that, after hearing from two of the actual team members, this whole thread is bogus.
 

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When your team is comprised of the best shooters in the state and they only shoot together at the big ATA shoots because they don't live anywhere near each other and they don't shoot or practice together the rest of time; then they're only a team because the rules don't prohibit it. But I'm not the poster who was complaining, and if that's not what's occuring, then you're right. There's no way I would know, but nobody has said anything different.
 

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I think that there are a lot of assumptions being made about these kids that are unfounded. My son is 13 and you can pretty much bet that one of the five kids on his squad will win their age group at every shoot, but you never know which one. Their squad has won all but one of the events that they entered with a squad trophy and they often beat the high school teams. They aren't cherry picked kids for any nefarious purpose. They just practice together and take pride in getting better together. I can see how kids that take the sport seriously would naturally migrate towards others with the same level of dedication and want to grow as a team. I'm not sure why anyone would intentionally want to handicap their team by forcing them to squad with less experienced shooters just to make things fair. I've never seen a high school football team trot out someone from the band to play quarterback to keep things fair.

Kudos to the kids from Arkansas! Nice shooting.
 

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I've never seen a high school football team trot out someone from the band to play quarterback to keep things fair.
But what if the Fayetteville high school basketball team (5 play like trap has 5 on a squad) had one starter from Paragould, one from Greenwood, one from Ft. Smith, one from Fayetteville and one from Rose Bud. One starter had to travel more than 200 miles to compete. Would that be fair to your team

The Arkansas team won playing by the rules. If coaches were smart they would recruit junior all americans to shoot for their team next year. There are no geography restrictions in AIM. Put five together (like elite high school basketball is today) and go for it.
 

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maybe they should call it the aim state all star team?

ya know...like the baseball all star game?

where states compete against other states all star, hand picked, top notch, best of the best, teams?
 

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So for AIM the only requirement is that all must be residents of the same state? It's different for SCTP?

In order to win a prize at the state shoot all team memebers must be from that state.

I did not notice that restriction mentioned the national tournament.

At the national tournament, one Arkansas team, not a Jr. Team, not the team in question, had a shooter from another state. It appears.
 

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First, the AR kids have done nothing wrong, they played by the rules and shot the targets. The deserve everything they won.

However, the AIM rules should be more inline with the SCTP rules because there is a team competition component and it should matter how a team is constructed. As it stands, a person could sponsor a team, recruit the 5 best junior AAA shooters, buy them top line guns, hire the best coaches, buy them all the targets and shells they could stand to shoot, pay their way to every big competition, pay their entry fees and give them all a matching hat. Now, they may not win every week, but that would sure as heck be the way to bet.
 

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First, the AR kids have done nothing wrong, they played by the rules and shot the targets. The deserve everything they won.

However, the AIM rules should be more inline with the SCTP rules because there is a team competition component and it should matter how a team is constructed. As it stands, a person could sponsor a team, recruit the 5 best junior AAA shooters, buy them top line guns, hire the best coaches, buy them all the targets and shells they could stand to shoot, pay their way to every big competition, pay their entry fees and give them all a matching hat. Now, they may not win every week, but that would sure as heck be the way to bet.

BRING IT ON!!! ITS CALLED CAPITALISM!!!!!
 

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Give these guys a break. They shot well and have been shooting together for 4 years!! Congrats!!

Time will show the motive I think. It will be interesting to watch how the members are replaced as they graduate, burn out, get a driver's license, discover girls, etc. If the State's brand new AAA shooter becomes their new bestie all of a sudden, hmmmm. Until then, they get the benefit of the doubt.
 

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My background is SCTP and a squad that is made up of athletes from across the state would not be allowed. In SCTP Team comes first, individual second. Perhaps my opinion is skewed, but I look at AIM as individual first, team second.

But, this thread made me think a little so I downloaded both the AIM handbook and Arkansas Youth Shooting Sports Handbook. I don't believe the AYSSA handbook plays into this equation unless this squad was competing in the AIM Championship under the AYSSA banner... I don't know if we have those facts.

This is not a "Sandbagging" situation at all. Cherry picking is a better term, but I can't find rules against it in AIM??? The AIM handbook has almost no verbiage to team composition except the following: Pg. 20 - Squads competing in the AIM Grand Championships for team trophies are encouraged to be comprised of local shooters from the same club, school, organization, or group. (This is as non-definitive as you can get, so I think that leaves the door wide open.)

If this team was representing AYSSA at AIM, it would raise questions as there are several requirements for team composition in the AYSSA Handbook. No idea if they apply here.

Many times I thought it would be really neat to have my son shoot with some of the other "hot-shots" from around the state and go and stomp the competition. We followed the SCTP model and developed our local team and when 5 athletes from the same school go and and win it's a whole lot more fun to watch and I believe the lessons taught and learned are far more valuable than just shooting a good score.

985 x 1000 is impressive even if it was an "all-star squad" as all five were on the mark for two hundred straight, there are plenty of adults that would like to be part of that squad. Nice shooting.
 

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Capitalism? I don't think so, Brady. Capitalism requires a profit motive. No, that would be just economic bullying.

Colleges limit scholarships and prohibit paying athletes. The pros have drafts, limits on practice squads and salary caps. Why, because no one wants a team sport to be dominated by available cash.
 

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They played by the rules and won.
Time to say congratulations and move on.
Exactly. I understand the problem people have with this issue. If it's perceived to not be fair then get the rules changed but don't dump on the people who won while playing within the rules. They won fair and square.
 

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Why don't we talk to the kids face to face and get to know them personally and then see if you think they are cheaters. They will be on bank 5 squad 329 for handicap event 16 and bank 22c squad 260 for event 17. Come meet them in person and let them tell you how they became friends and started shooting together 4 years ago.

For those of you that can't make it I'll give you some of the history:

Been shooting as a group for 4 years when they could. Even in caps they seemed to progress back to the 27 at about the same rate so even while they were mid yardage they managed to keep their group intact. If one member was stuck on a yard line the others would work with him to get that next punch. When they first started shooting as a group not a single member had been close to an all-American. In fact only 1 had been in category all state. Over the next 2 years you could see the potential develop and eventually all 5 would make the team. Some have made it multiple times.

In 2013 if my memory sreves correctly 4 of them shot AIM together but didn't enter the team division. They all shot individual. In the Junior division that year Illinois won with 5 kids from various parts of the state. During the spring of 2014 one of the parents was talking to Lynn Gipson in San Antonio and was told that any 5 kids can form a team regardless of geography. So the next year they shot an AIM monthly event, Arkansas State and the Grand as a team.

4 years ago they only people that would have dreamed that these kids would accomplish what they have is THEM. They have won an AIM National Championship twice. 1st junior squad in ATA to shoot a 500. Every member has been an All American. One of the kids this week whipped the field winning Prelim HOA.

I am proud to call myself their "Coach" but lets not kid anyone...These 5 passed my coaching ability 2 years ago. All I do now is fill out the registration form and stand in line to pay. They take care of the rest.

Instead of accusing these kids of cheating maybe we need to pat them on the back and say congrats. In my eyes they've earned it the hard way.

See you on the line.
Dennis Tune
President Elect, Treasurer
Arkansas State Trapshooting Federaton
 
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