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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
7/8 ounce 1200 fps ( 2 1/2 dram ) 12 Ga. shells don't fully cycle in my 11-87 reliably. It is clean, the gas section is damp with Rem-oil, new O-ring and new Gas Piston and Gas Piston Seal ( old style 2 piece ). I ordered one of the new style snap together piston/seal assemblies and have it on hand but I am wondering if that will make enough difference to let it cycle that light load. The gas ports in the bbl are clean. Some 'research' has suggested opening up the ports and others has suggested a lightened recoil spring.

I'm first going to try the snap together piston assembly but am wondering if there is another, better option that doesn't require butchering the bbl or making a modified spring that will allow the bolt to whack heck out of the receiver with a little heavier shell. This gun is for my grandson and he shoots those 7/8 ouncers well even for the second shot on dubs but it takes a bigger shell to cycle the light one in for that second shot.

Thanks in advance,

Don T
 

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I would do a recoil spring WELL BEFORE opening up any ports That spring is changeable the ports not so much.

I have an 11-87 Premier Trap, It cycles 7/8 "light" loads. It has been shot a bunch so I know the action is honed smooth.

DGH
 

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Are you shooting reloads? My guess is yes because , at least around here, the 7/8 Oz. factory loads do not seem to exist.

If they are reloads, you may also want to consider going to a slightly different powder. Why? It is not the peak pressure that cycles the action, it is the total impulse given to the charge. That can mean a longer pressure curve giving a more sustained push to the gas that moves both the shot and the bolt. Think of it as a quick hard jab to the shoulder (high pressure low impulse) versus a slower but longer acting push on the shoulder (lower pressure but longer duration). The different powder can provide a longer pressure curve which can overcome the inertia of the action ring/bolt.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Are you shooting reloads? My guess is yes because , at least around here, the 7/8 Oz. factory loads do not seem to exist.

If they are reloads, you may also want to consider going to a slightly different powder. Why? It is not the peak pressure that cycles the action, it is the total impulse given to the charge. That can mean a longer pressure curve giving a more sustained push to the gas that moves both the shot and the bolt. Think of it as a quick hard jab to the shoulder (high pressure low impulse) versus a slower but longer acting push on the shoulder (lower pressure but longer duration). The different powder can provide a longer pressure curve which can overcome the inertia of the action ring/bolt.

New RIO's.

Don T
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I would do a recoil spring WELL BEFORE opening up any ports That spring is changeable the ports not so much.

I have an 11-87 Premier Trap, It cycles 7/8 "light" loads. It has been shot a bunch so I know the action is honed smooth.

DGH

This one has been shot a lot also. It is well 'worn in' on the internals and nothing is bent ( at least there is no place on the rails that show wear where it ought not be ). The wear points aren't scuffed and are lightly lubed. Have a new spring ordered .....


Don T
 

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The gun was never designed to shoot those loads. Some 1100s and 1187s shoot them anyways, some don't, luck of the draw. My 1187 won't even cycle 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dram Top Guns, but it does just fine with everything else I've ever fed it including some punky 1oz handloads.
 

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The simple fact is 7/8 oz 2.5 dram loads will not cycle the vast majority of unmodified 12ga 1187s. Any unmodified 12ga 1187 that cycles those loads is a rare exception to the rule, and generally is a gun with a lot of break in time.

The solution is to drill out the gas port or ports. But once done, heavier trap loads can result in too much bolt velocity, and ditto for all but the lightest game loads.

This is why for youths I recommend the 1100 LT-20 or the 1187 20ga. They will cycle 7/8 oz 2.5 dram loads right out of the box. Plus the guns are lighter, and their girth fits smaller hands better. Later they can be used as hunting guns for small game and upland, and even for sporting clays or skeet. Personally I would rather go this route than open up the ports on a 12ga trap barrel. And the lack of a factory 20ga trap stock is not really an issue. I've reduced the size of the tenon on three 12ga trap or slug gun monte carlo stocks to fit an LT-20 and two 1187 20ga guns without much effort. Makes for a dandy 7/8ths scale trap gun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
The gun was never designed to shoot those loads. Some 1100s and 1187s shoot them anyways, some don't, luck of the draw. My 1187 won't even cycle 1 1/8oz 2 3/4 dram Top Guns, but it does just fine with everything else I've ever fed it including some punky 1oz handloads.

Thanks Jim.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
The simple fact is 7/8 oz 2.5 dram loads will not cycle the vast majority of unmodified 12ga 1187s. Any unmodified 12ga 1187 that cycles those loads is a rare exception to the rule, and generally is a gun with a lot of break in time.

The solution is to drill out the gas port or ports. But once done, heavier trap loads can result in too much bolt velocity, and ditto for all but the lightest game loads.

This is why for youths I recommend the 1100 LT-20 or the 1187 20ga. They will cycle 7/8 oz 2.5 dram loads right out of the box. Plus the guns are lighter, and their girth fits smaller hands better. Later they can be used as hunting guns for small game and upland, and even for sporting clays or skeet. Personally I would rather go this route than open up the ports on a 12ga trap barrel. And the lack of a factory 20ga trap stock is not really an issue. I've reduced the size of the tenon on three 12ga trap or slug gun monte carlo stocks to fit an LT-20 and two 1187 20ga guns without much effort. Makes for a dandy 7/8ths scale trap gun.
Thanks Brian, he is 16 and not all that small so the need for a 'youth' gun is only for a short-short. I may end up just going ahead and getting 1 ounce loads for him instead of molesting a good shotgun permanently. The only reason for the 7/8 2.5's is to make it a zero recoil shot so he won't learn to flinch before he learns the basics. He shoots it well on dubs with a 1 ounce first shot to cycle the 7/8 ounce second shot and he just flat smokes that second target more often than not so I was hoping for a way to let him shoot both shots light. If it takes both shots the 1 ouncer just to be certain it cycles that is what I will do.

Don T
 

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Then yes, that's the best solution right there - go to 1 ounce loads. Change the butt pad for a softer one if he has an issue with the increased recoil. You can also add weight to the gun if need be, if he not small in stature.
 

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I have an 11-87 light contour barrel that has the pressure compensating system and cycles my 7/8 oz loads flawlessly. Does your 11-87 barrel have this system which would be located on the gas ring? JM
 

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Generally the pressure compensating field barrels will not cycle low power loads as well as the non-compensated trap or skeet barrels.
 

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Roger on the Rio's. I can't remember ever seeing them around here.

One other thing you might want to try is to carefully clean and polish the chamber. A dirty or rough chamber might just hold the shell a bit harder. Try wrapping some 0000 steel wool around a mandrel and soaking it in a good gun cleaner and then hooking it to a slow speed drill and AT SLOW SPEED, let the drill turn the mandrel a number of times to clean and polish the chamber. Then clean it out with a clean patch/swab to remove any crud scrapped off by the steel wool.

I have both an 1100 and an 11-87 and all I shoot for 16's are 7/8 Oz at about 1175 and they will function it just fine. Neither has had it gas ports altered and the action spring was replaced on one of them but I can't recall which one. The new action spring did cause some problems for a little bit but a good cleaning of the action sporing tube and a few sprinkles of powdered graphite after the cleaning seemed to clear that up or maybe it just had a chance to settle in. I use the Win AA HS case or the Rem STS or Gun Club. The Gun club is the only one that sometimes gives me a problem. I figure it is most likely because of the steel head.
 

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I have an 11-87 and shoot 7/8 loads almost exclusively. Two things:

the magazine tube and piston components need to be dry, not lubricated (From Remington maintenance manual:
"2. Clean the outside surface of the magazine tube with cleaning solvent, then wipe dry with a clean cloth.")
I changed my action spring to one made by Surecycle, although I don't remember having cycling issues with the OEM spring.

http://www.surecycle.com/index.php/sure-cycle-systems/remington.html

cheers

Charlie
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Flash - Target barrel or field barrel?

Shoot wet with BreakFree CLP.

Target bbl.

Yeah. I'm thinking of several things at once. Gunzilla CLP maybe tonight since I'm out of Break Free.

Don T
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
I have an 11-87 and shoot 7/8 loads almost exclusively. Two things:

the magazine tube and piston components need to be dry, not lubricated (From Remington maintenance manual:
"2. Clean the outside surface of the magazine tube with cleaning solvent, then wipe dry with a clean cloth.")
I changed my action spring to one made by Surecycle, although I don't remember having cycling issues with the OEM spring.

http://www.surecycle.com/index.php/sure-cycle-systems/remington.html

cheers

Charlie

I've been around a while. First thing I checked was the REM book, second thing was the net, third thing was other shooters of 1100 , 11-87's on the Trap field, fourth was here for wider area. Mass of high volume shooters tell me run it damp with Rem-oil / CLP. Couple folks say spring. One or two say open ports. None say dry.

Spring is ordered. Meanwhile I'm trying snap together gas piston and CLP on clean parts.

Thanks.

Don T
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I found that varies from flat to flat. Their powder-of-the-week makes a difference.

I'm wondering that about these RIO's. Some boxes cycle, some don't. Flat to flat differences so lot to lot differences. I bet I will end up having to switch to the 1 ounce loads for him to get reliable cycling out of this gun without molesting the bbl.'s gas ports.

Don T
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
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