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Reloading For A Tula Choked Barrel

3558 Views 24 Replies 15 Participants Last post by  target.orange
I would like some input as to your experience for loading 12 gauge Tula Choked Barrels (jug choke), k80 28 inch. I know about the history and that originally ammo was primarily made with felt wads.
However can you recommend what you have found best for skeet shooting this barrel as far as shot weight, type cup wad, and best speed for skeet shooting?
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I have heard no perceptable difference shooting skeet with plastic wads..but on paper may show another story.I was also told a little choke plus or minus was better than cylinder .000 as no choke at all patterned erratic as if it didn't know which way to go.
 

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No idea on the 12 ga. but do know that in the 16 you can't really make much of a difference with loads from what you normally use.



The 37 RVD came to me fixed Full and has at least a 6" jug choke section of .010" the previous owner was a trapshooter. And rightfully so believed in Full and Fuller. I wanted it for pump gun events at classic shoots and needed more choices to use it from skeet, sporting clays and trap so had Briley install thinwalls.

The 37 Field is fixed IC and measures .008 it is one of my ruff grouse guns. The 37 RVD with .004 choke tube will smoke any skeet target on the field a lot harder than the .008 using identical shells. Sometimes DR16 with 7/8 others with SG16 with 1 oz. Have played around with #8, 8.5 and 9 not really a lot of difference in performance. Except in winter the 9's will not always break frozen targets but that isn't the gun or type of choke, it is the shooter not centering the bird. Pretty sure you are not going to change anything with your shells, just load as normal and break all those pesky skeets.
 

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What is the difference?

 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks skeet man. What I know I have is at the very end on the barrel towards the exiting shorptvit is expanded to about a 10 gauge bore in this k80 barrel. All that I am hoping for is someone with experience in shooting this type of barrel can tell me if I should shoot: 3/4, 7/8, 1, or 1 1/8 ounce, best type of cup wad and perhaps best speed of shot that they have experienced shooting this type of barrel.
 

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Several years ago, I had Briley make up a set of Tula chokes for my K80 heavy barrel that had been set up for choke tubes by them. The chokes went from .738 to .780, then back down to .750 at the muzzle. Had to use a 10 ga choke wrench. Using the wads below, I was able to get a very large pattern (with a pretty solid core) at the Skeet stake. One could shoot the High 2 in the tail feathers past the stake and break both targets.

I traded in the two barrel K80 set for a higher grade Sporter. A Skeet shooting friend wound up with the barrel. He is a happy camper.

 

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I have always understood that "jug choke" and "Tula choke" are, in fact, essentially the same. Jug chokes are common in muzzle loading shotguns to allow easier loading. Here is some info on types of chokes: Choke types diagram

I have read that jug/tula chokes perform best with card and fiber wads, and not so well with one piece plastic, but I can't cite any proof. I shot a jug choked Kleingunther skeet gun at pheasants over a good setter one year and it hammered them. I was shooting card and fiber wad reloads.
 

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Some interesting information I came across.


It appears to be English translated to Russian, which I then translated back to English, so...

This is the best image of a jug choke that I can find. The difference between it and a Tula is that the muzzle of the gun is the same as bore ID or tighter, whereas a tula choke is much larger than bore ID at the muzzle. Right church, wrong pew. A jug choke just tries to add more constriction to the choke by virtue of the difference b/w the jug ID and choke ID, it doesn't try to do any of the black magic the Tula design did. Tulas were also designed pretty much exclusively for shot ranges with small shot, a jug choke can result in any amount of constriction up to the limits of the ID and OD of that specific barrel. Neils tests showed that the Tula Krieghoff barrel peformed pretty much the same as a normal cylinder or skeet choke.

 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
This is the load I used: AA CF hull, 18.5 gr of WST, Win 209 primer, RXP wad, Rem Mag 9's.
Thank you Mr. McMillen for the loading info. Can I assume that you load 1 1/8 shot. Been trying some 7/8 and 1 ounce loads, but not breaking targets well; many large piece breaks. On Friday with test some 1 1/8 loads with 20.5 green dot. Hopefully the denser pattern will breaks targets much better.
 

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I would like some input as to your experience for loading 12 gauge Tula Choked Barrels (jug choke), k80 28 inch. I know about the history and that originally ammo was primarily made with felt wads.
However can you recommend what you have found best for skeet shooting this barrel as far as shot weight, type cup wad, and best speed for skeet shooting?
I had a Perazzi MX8 skeet gun with enlarged muzzles and vertical slots plus a Rottweil Olympia 72 skeet gun.

When I first had the Perazzi I was supplied with Rottweil Stern ammunition, one of the most expensive 32 gm high brass skeet shells on the market at the time. There were no plastic wads in the Sterns. After having two (!) bloopers in a shoot-off in Finland for a medal in the Nordic Championships, my friend Ole Riber Rasmussen took pity on me and arranged for Danarms, the Danish manufacturer, to provide me with the same ammunition he used. Danarms shells had plastic wads. From a shooter’s perspective I can’t say I noticed any difference, i.e. between the plastic wadded Danarms and the non-plastic wadded Rottweils, except to say I never had any bloopers with the Danarms!

In 1964 I shot on the same squad as Conny Wirnhier for two days in the English Open Championship which he won. He went on to win the ISSF World Championship in 1965 and 1967 plus the Olympic gold medal in 1972. When I shot with Wirnhier I can remember he used what looked like a fairly crude prototype of the Rottweil Olympia 72. It was similar, but not the same.

ISSF Olympic skeet - Wikipedia

I used all kinds of ammunition, i.e. plastic wadded and paper/felt wadded, through my Rottweil Olympia 72. I never noticed any difference from a shooting perspective in either kills or scores. However, I shot my best scores at Olympic skeet with Perazzi and Winchester shotguns made for me with plain old unadulterated true cylinder/true cylinder barrels without any fancy “improvements”.

As an aside, shortly after the Berlin Wall came down the top Soviet Olympic skeet shooters ditched their Tula choked MU-6s or MU-8s and switched to Perazzis! That must tell you something about the so called 'magic' of Tula chokes :cool:. Good luck with your reloading.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
I had a Perazzi MX8 skeet gun with enlarged muzzles and vertical slots plus a Rottweil Olympia 72 skeet gun.

When I first had the Perazzi I was supplied with Rottweil Stern ammunition, one of the most expensive 32 gm high brass skeet shells on the market at the time. There were no plastic wads in the Sterns. After having two (!) bloopers in a shoot-off in Finland for a medal in the Nordic Championships, my friend Ole Riber Rasmussen took pity on me and arranged for Danarms, the Danish manufacturer, to provide me with the same ammunition he used. Danarms shells had plastic wads. From a shooter’s perspective I can’t say I noticed any difference, i.e. between the plastic wadded Danarms and the non-plastic wadded Rottweils, except to say I never had any bloopers with the Danarms!

In 1964 I shot on the same squad as Conny Wirnhier for two days in the English Open Championship which he won. He went on to win the ISSF World Championship in 1965 and 1967 plus the Olympic gold medal in 1972. When I shot with Wirnhier I can remember he used what looked like a fairly crude prototype of the Rottweil Olympia 72. It was similar, but not the same.

ISSF Olympic skeet - Wikipedia

I used all kinds of ammunition, i.e. plastic wadded and paper/felt wadded, through my Rottweil Olympia 72. I never noticed any difference from a shooting perspective in either kills or scores. However, I shot my best scores at Olympic skeet with Perazzi and Winchester shotguns made for me with plain old unadulterated true cylinder/true cylinder barrels without any fancy “improvements”.

As an aside, shortly after the Berlin Wall came down the top Soviet Olympic skeet shooters ditched their Tula choked MU-6s or MU-8s and switched to Perazzis! That must tell you something about the so called 'magic' of Tula chokes :cool:. Good luck with your reloading.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Thank you very much for your input. Nice to hear from someone that has so much history in world shooting. Also very important for me to hear that plastic wads should work just fine.

If I do not like the way I am breaking targets with these barrel because of the Tula chokes, I most likely will send the barrels to Briley for re-choking. However I am going to try some 1 1/8 loads this weekend and see what happens. I found last week that both barrels had the same POI at 20 yards; namely, 50/50. The patterns looked really good with the cup wads and the wads always hit the target on the side. But I noticed the wads were very darkened with burnt powder. I guess perhaps this is occurring because of blow by in the barrel.

I wish that I had a bore gauge to determine the bore size before the choking. Originally the barrel was marked 18.6 mm. On top of the 18 area is stamped a large 0. I do suspect the barrel diameter is larger than 0.732. Perhaps the larger diameter barrel is causing the blow by.
 

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Thank you Mr. McMillen for the loading info. Can I assume that you load 1 1/8 shot. Been trying some 7/8 and 1 ounce loads, but not breaking targets well; many large piece breaks. On Friday with test some 1 1/8 loads with 20.5 green dot. Hopefully the denser pattern will breaks targets much better.
Yes, 1 1/8 oz load. Never tried a smaller payload.
 

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Thank you very much for your input. Nice to hear from someone that has so much history in world shooting. Also very important for me to hear that plastic wads should work just fine.

If I do not like the way I am breaking targets with these barrel because of the Tula chokes, I most likely will send the barrels to Briley for re-choking. However I am going to try some 1 1/8 loads this weekend and see what happens. I found last week that both barrels had the same POI at 20 yards; namely, 50/50. The patterns looked really good with the cup wads and the wads always hit the target on the side. But I noticed the wads were very darkened with burnt powder. I guess perhaps this is occurring because of blow by in the barrel.

I wish that I had a bore gauge to determine the bore size before the choking. Originally the barrel was marked 18.6 mm. On top of the 18 area is stamped a large 0. I do suspect the barrel diameter is larger than 0.732. Perhaps the larger diameter barrel is causing the blow by.
I would suggest you find someone with a bore gauge, and don't do anything with the choke until you find out the bore and the choke constriction. The choke will be in the last 1/2" in your barrel. Mine was an .004.
 
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