Trapshooters Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 76 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
41 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I've been researching trap guns and the term "release trigger" comes up a lot.

Excuse my naiveté, but does this mean a trigger that works in the opposite fashion from the usual trigger? E.g. you release the trigger to fire the gun rather than pulling it.

If so, what's the advantage of such a trigger? What happens if it's your turn to shoot but something happens that requires you not to shoot--how do you release the trigger without firing the gun?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,183 Posts
On a release trigger O/U, your squeeze the trigger to "set" it....and release the trigger ti fire it. Mainly used to combat a flinch. If you set the trigger and decide not to fire ie. no target or broken target, you open the action....and start again. The action of the trigger is a little more complicated than that...but that's the basics. Many folks think a "release" is a more natural action than squeezing........as in throwing a ball or a Frisbee...you relax the muscles instead of tensing them. Hope this helps.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,909 Posts
Many folks think a "release" is a more natural action than squeezing........as in throwing a ball or a Frisbee...you relax the muscles instead of tensing them. Hope this helps.
Good analogy mikkeek. A release is one of the greatest competitive tools ever created. On par with the creation of a break open shotgun, an unsingle, an adjustable rib, an adjustable comb, hard shot, a plastic wad, and on and on.......
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,738 Posts
Jerry, don't believe everything you hear from these guys. The best thing you can do is forget you ever heard the term, especially when these guys use it and "Flinch" in the same sentence.

Avoid any discussion of those two terms when talking to trapshooters, especially when you hear the word cure. That's right up there with a government employee saying....... we are here to help you.

They were banned from international competition due to them being an unfair advantage.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,909 Posts
Jerry,
The last thing you should listen to is the unaccomplished that aren't smart enough to use every tool available to break the best scores.
The unaccomplished' only wish is to have lot's of company..
Those,, will forever remain, unaccomplished....
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,302 Posts
Hi Jerry and welcome to the sport. If you find a gun with a release trigger, buy it. It is a superior way of firing a trap gun. Also, 221 is a poster who has zero credibility here. You will find no one who will defend him. He is probably the poster who is on the most "ignored lists" because people have just gotten tired of his ignorant nonsense.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,909 Posts
Also, 221 is a poster who has zero credibility here. You will find no one who will defend him. He is probably the poster who is on the most "ignored lists" because people have just gotten tired of his ignorant nonsense.
True. A very high percentage of posters here consider him a troll, who's unaccomplished, and his only goal is to stir up crap and change the subject of any thread to himself. He is most likely the cause of reduced participation on this forum.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
Jerry, don't believe everything you hear from these guys. The best thing you can do is forget you ever heard the term, especially when these guys use it and "Flinch" in the same sentence.

Avoid any discussion of those two terms when talking to trapshooters, especially when you hear the word cure. That's right up there with a government employee saying....... we are here to help you.
I agree with 221.

I would also like to add that one of the things I like least about release triggers is the religious zeal their users use to preach about them trying to get everyone to convert. Maybe I'm a bit old fashioned but this old country boy has a certain expectation of how triggers operate. They operate the same on all my rifles and pistols. Why would I want something different on my shotgun?

If you have a release trigger and you like it great, but don't be evangelical about it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,909 Posts
I would also like to add that one of the things I like least about release triggers is the religious zeal their users use to preach about them trying to get everyone to convert.
You're wrong there. "trying to get everyone to convert" is a completely incorrect analogy. A release is a competitive tool, available to anyone. Period..
The intent here is to HELP those that may need it. Let them decide.

Where the peeing match starts, is when an anti-release unaccomplished troll spouts such idiocy as they should not be allowed.
Creating drama when NONE should exist.

A trigger is simply pulled back a fraction of an inch, or let go a fraction of an inch. That's it. It isn't rocket science.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
102 Posts
You're wrong there. "trying to get everyone to convert" is a completely incorrect analogy. A release is a competitive tool, available to anyone. Period..
The intent here is to HELP those that may need it. Let them decide.
I think preaching is a rather correct analogy. I didn't think we would ever get back to shooting trap at the club yesterday as we had to listen yet again to a long winded speech about how released triggers are the greatest thing since sliced bread. This is certainly not the first time it's happened and I'm quite positive it won't be the last.

If you think it helps you then likely it does. But I know a lot of highly skilled trap and skeet shooters that do just fine without it.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,738 Posts
Where the peeing match starts, is when an anti-release unaccomplished troll spouts such idiocy as they should not be allowed.
Creating drama when NONE should exist.
The p match starts due to you and your confused notion that RT's are a cure for a flinch. They are not. AND, I've said over and over RT's should be separated, just as a scope and open sights are. Mixing them together creates an unfair advantage and you know it.

Your biggest fear and all those that preach their miraculous advantage would not be so happy if you were put into a class where you had to compete on an even level. The best for all, would be to not have allowed them in the first place. Trap would be much better off today if they would accept you're not 30 anymore. Now that they are impossible to get purged from the system, they should be separated. Just like the youth, senior, ladies, handicap. Add a "Release class and I'd be OK with it.

BUT, you need to stop making up fallacies about me and what I've said about RT's,,, as it's correct. Get over it, already. Your worn out standard rant about anything I say is long been obsolete.

The International community saw the writing on the wall many years ago,and put a stop to them. The Americans just did what Americans do, and ran with instant gratification. Now look at the results. Aging shooters, declining participation and the ones left are finding their bad habits, that someone planted in their heads does not age well. Bad habits or lack of training and skill, are not age friendly. The older you get the more your lack of shooting ability shows up.

NordCelt is exactly right and there a huge number of international and world class shooters, that perform very well with just a trigger. Our Olympic champions should be proof enough.

Jerry, If you're smart you will mold yourself after our most gifted world champions and run from guys like paladin.

I'll bet very few of you at the club have ever discussed strengthening your hand, while claiming a RT will work just as well. How many of you RT worshipers have ever done strength building techniques on your shooting hands?

You nor anyone not even the forum ankle biters, can buy a gun, add a few gadgets and just stand on the podium.

ONE MORE TIME>>>>>>>>>>>>> A RT does not cure anything, especially a "FLINCH" (which is not a FTF). They belong competing against other RT shooters. Using a RT and beating the 4 other guys on the line is a very shallow and small victory.

The International Community knew they were an unfair advantage, and nothing has changed, as they are in the hands of a talented shooter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
527 Posts
221. You think a RT is a "unfair advantage"? That would indicate that it is a better trigger. And it cured my flinch, no matter what you say. Pull trigger, I flinch. RT, I do not flinch. Case settled.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,738 Posts
Yes it is, just as a March Scope is better than Redfield International sights. But when you need a scope to compete against peep sights you are needing an unfair advantage to compete.

Should everyone go to RT's ????? That's not going to happen, and allowing RT's to steal targets against those that do not use them is once again an "Unfair Advantage"..........And I'm not the only one that feels that way.

I an rather proud of my trigger pulling ability. When you get beat the next time or win by 1 bird, keep in mind the other guy with the pull is really the better shooter, no matter what the score says. You can't change that.

In any shooting competition, your trigger pulling ability separates the men from the boys.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
5,302 Posts
I have posted this before and I usually don't put it up when the "discussion" is about flinching because it really isn't about flinching, it is about the effectiveness of release triggers. However it does offer some proof that release triggers are a superior way to fire a trap gun and there is little use in allowing the ignorant to pontificate otherwise based on their "feelings". Argue with experts if you like.


I got the following note some time ago from a friend that he received from one of his friends. I did a couple of minor edits to protect their identities but the rest is presented as written. It's got nothing to do with flinching but it sure makes a strong case about release triggers.

"Hey XXXXXXX,

As you know, I took up Trapshooting a little more than 4 years ago using an old model 12 trap gun that was loaned to me by a friend. However, after I had demonstrated a commitment to the game, my father in law sent me an over/under. By chance, it had both release and pull dropout triggers. While I knew nothing about release triggers and had never flinched, I thought why not give it a try. One of the guys at the club where I shoot showed me how to use it. Bingo. Within a couple of rounds I was shooting better than I had ever shot before. I soon gave ATA a try. I liked it and within XX months I was shooting AA/27.

I have watched the arguments about release triggers on TS.com for quite a while. I never felt qualified to jump in and participate because most of these arguments referred to flinching rather than just whether a release trigger is a better method of firing a trap gun. Because I had never had a problem with flinching, I do not understand anything about that problem. However, here is where it gets interesting. I have a very unique job. I am a team coordinator/referee/slave driver/mother hen for a team of exceptionally educated, experienced professionals representing a variety of engineering, medical, psychological and research disciplines. Our business is rocket science and brain surgery so to speak.

We are all employed by a major aerospace firm and while some of what we do is highly classified, most of it is of a standard commercial nature. What we do is provide independent testing for human interface control systems to determine if those controls are designed in such a manner as to eliminate as much probability of human error as possible. Simply put, this might just be whether it is better for a two way toggle switch to have up as off and down as on or vice versa. However, think of the control array in a 737 cockpit, the space shuttle or a nuclear power plant and that is what people pay us a lot of money to test. We usually have about 10 people on a team and we bill at $8000-$10,000 per hour.

About once a quarter we try to get the team out of the labs and into a more natural setting. I decided that a day at my trap club might be a lot of fun. I recruited a friend to help me with getting the guys to the line and shooting, and hopefully, hitting some targets. We had four trap guns, three with pull triggers and mine with the release. I was surprised at how easily some of the guys took to shooting the release. Afterwards, as we were sitting around enjoying chili dogs, the guys who used the release trigger started asking questions as to why my gun had a release and the other guns had pulled triggers. I gave the standard overview concerning flinching. However, these guys immediately were interested in whether a release trigger is a better human control interface for firing a trap gun. Much discussion ensued and everyone had a great time bringing their particular discipline to bear, but being research scientists no one would accept a resolution without specific testing.

A couple of weeks later, we had cleared the decks for a large contract concerning a fire control system for a shipboard missile defense system. The package was to arrive on the appointed morning and we had completed constructing our testing protocols. However, as I was conducting what I thought was the final check list meeting, we were notified that their might be a delay in delivery. Somehow the conversation flowed back to the outing at the trap club and then the discussion about release triggers. About that time, we were notified that delivery would be delayed at least 24 hours. So here is all this high-priced talent with nothing to do so someone suggested why not apply our talents to a release trigger review. Needless to say, numerous bets were quickly made. Having previously received security clearance to bring my trap gun into the employee parking lot, I happened to have my gun in my trunk. A quick call to security and I and my trap gun were being escorted into the lab.

Soon, we had several volunteers with wires attached from their trigger fingers, up their arms, on their spinal column and all over their heads. Others were studying the mechanical forces required and exerted by the two different triggers. Data was collected in the number crunching began. After a bit over five hours of research we had our answer.

Our typical project results in a document that runs from 20 pages for something very simple to several hundred pages for multiple function control arrays. However, while these reports are very helpful for the design and manufacturing teams, we have devised a simple ratio to present so that non-technical management people can quickly appreciate the value propositions of one system versus another. To do this we assign the least desirable functionality a value of one. We then assign the better functionality a value of plus one. By example, if we have found that the up is the worst position for "on" for the toggle switch then we might say that having "off" is a 1.14 better choice. We call this the better alternative ratio.

Because most of the products/systems that we test our very well designed with a lot of previous knowledge applied, our alternative ratio is usually fairly low. In fact, previously the highest alternative ratio that we have estimated for a manual control was a 2.67. Now, drumroll, the release trigger came back with a better alternative ratio compared to the pull trigger of 3.27 based upon a projected 100 repetitions in a 45 minute time frame. Quite frankly I was shocked at how big the difference was. Even though I had seen my shooting improve after getting the gun with the release trigger, there were lots of other variables that I am sure contributed to that progress

In summary, we produced a result that someone would have had to pay us about $45,000 to achieve. While I can't add anything to the discussion about flinching, I think I can categorically state that a release trigger provides a substantial biomechanical superiority to a pull trigger for shooting a trap gun.

Of course, we all know that many of the best trapshooters successfully use pull triggers and achieve 99% plus results. We also know that the majority of release trigger users will never achieve 99% plus results. However, if I were going to train 100 qualified candidates that can fly fighter jets to shoot trap, every one of them would have a gun with a release trigger."
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
695 Posts
strange I had a flinch as could not pull the trigger went to a release and my scores went down when do i get the advantage 221 speaks of
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
14,903 Posts
221 says release triggers are an unfair advantage. So what happens when a pull trigger shooter and a release trigger shooter tie for the GAHandicap? Does the release trigger shooter have to spot the pull trigger shooter a certain number of targets to make it a fair shoot? Just curious. 221, can you explain the procedure for the shootoff please?

GneJ
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
4,738 Posts
221 says release triggers are an unfair advantage. So what happens when a pull trigger shooter and a release trigger shooter tie for the GAHandicap? Does the release trigger shooter have to spot the pull trigger shooter a certain number of targets to make it a fair shoot? Just curious. 221, can you explain the procedure for the shootoff please?

GneJ
There should not be that situation. The ATA does what it pleases. I only point out the truth about the triggers and their use. I love high tech gadgets, but if I can't win on a level field, I'd never brag I was the better shooter. It's legalized cheating pure and simple. Sort of like viagara, and silicone.

I did not determine RT's are an unfair advantage. The professional shooting community did over 40 years ago.

Long story short the AMU and the International shooters determined they were a loophole.... way...... to cheat, and were outlawed. They were even such a great enhancement the leader of the teams switched to one even though he did not approve of them...... as they did allow the team to shoot better scores. Temporarily that is. The committees with enough interest to keep shooting on an even level outlawed them. End of story.

If you don't like the truth blame the AMU as they got them booted.

I have my own design for a trigger that would make any RT obsolete, but why bother, for such a small market. The triggers are already being used and will be available from other vendors soon enough. Putting one on a trap gun could be a drop in. Very similar to what they use in AR's, but would not be mechanical. You release trigger lovers will have something to really complain about when someone does it, and you find yourself at an "unfair disadvantage". I doubt the RT users would be anymore amused than those that pull triggers today, are.
 
1 - 20 of 76 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top