If radar gun is calibrated and a ten yard pole is used for height 8 to 10' why can't the ATA determine a speed mph 41 to 43 or so, to throw a 49 to 51 yard target?? Most targets in US are white flyer(weight should be close), specify where gun is to be held, on house,? or @ 16 yard on a 4' pole to control height of gun or some consistent method? Your local HP doesn't seem to have a problem in determing your speed!! If wind is the problem to determime distance of target do a few tests in a indoor arena? If altitude is a problem maybe a few test in WYO. or Utah. Can't be that tough for the ATA to create some consistent method. The ATA has rules for everything else, why not one more? If the powers at hand condone Radar or Chrony add a few more guidelines instead of evading the issue?? What do you think???
Radar target setting consistent? Why not??
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In my opinion, the height pole and either a chronograph or radar gun are the best way to set targets. The ATA should publish speed guidelines for both, and do away with the yardage rule. How do you set 8 traps consistently to throw 50 yard targets in gusty and inconsistent wind?
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There's a guide on the ATA website.
But I'll tell you, there was a thread a whole back "Question for Neil or Pat" or very similar and I fould it scary how little people - even those who set by speed - understood what's important. I'm a little reluctant to make a rule whicn people _will not_ read and just go out and
1) set terrible targets, as someone standing at the trap with a low-power gun will, since they will be 4 MPH to fast
2) set too short targets and excuse them with "They are going 42 MPH" when they set them with the gun laying on the house (so they are really 40 1/2 MPH) or inside the house (so they are really 39 1/2 MPH.)
3) last, as perhaps worst, use some non-standard location for the gun - make the proper correction, and then announce "We were directed to set them to 44 1/2 MPH!" to make the directors look bad, since they should have added "but we have to because we use the gun in a non-standard way. If we did it right, they would read 42 MPH."
Unless we can weed out 1,2,& 3, it may just be better to let well-intentioned people use them as best they can and let the targets fall where they may.
Neil
But I'll tell you, there was a thread a whole back "Question for Neil or Pat" or very similar and I fould it scary how little people - even those who set by speed - understood what's important. I'm a little reluctant to make a rule whicn people _will not_ read and just go out and
1) set terrible targets, as someone standing at the trap with a low-power gun will, since they will be 4 MPH to fast
2) set too short targets and excuse them with "They are going 42 MPH" when they set them with the gun laying on the house (so they are really 40 1/2 MPH) or inside the house (so they are really 39 1/2 MPH.)
3) last, as perhaps worst, use some non-standard location for the gun - make the proper correction, and then announce "We were directed to set them to 44 1/2 MPH!" to make the directors look bad, since they should have added "but we have to because we use the gun in a non-standard way. If we did it right, they would read 42 MPH."
Unless we can weed out 1,2,& 3, it may just be better to let well-intentioned people use them as best they can and let the targets fall where they may.
Neil
I mentioned in a previous thread that owning a CR-1K isn't the fool proof answer to target setting. One must get to know the variables and be consistent with a radar gun. Period. But, it can be learned. I basically bought it as an aid in my reading of target speed.
That being said, I've owned and used chronographs for 25 years. In my further opinion, the chronograph mounted on a Pat Pal tool has to be the most fool-proof way there is to set targets for speed. How could it get any better than that? The speed is read directly under the target, every time. And the height pole is positioned out there in the wind, so the height can be set accordingly.
Sure there is going to be equipment malfunctions, so leave the 50 yard stake out there for reference. A nice feature with a CR-1K is the 61 MPH tuning fork that comes with it, for checking calibration. The only calibration tool I know of for a chronograph is the "factory".
Neil, your last sentence says it all, but it would be nice if there was at least a clear reference to chronograph and radar gun registered speeds. Something, anything to take the emphasis off of the 50 yard stake.
That being said, I've owned and used chronographs for 25 years. In my further opinion, the chronograph mounted on a Pat Pal tool has to be the most fool-proof way there is to set targets for speed. How could it get any better than that? The speed is read directly under the target, every time. And the height pole is positioned out there in the wind, so the height can be set accordingly.
Sure there is going to be equipment malfunctions, so leave the 50 yard stake out there for reference. A nice feature with a CR-1K is the 61 MPH tuning fork that comes with it, for checking calibration. The only calibration tool I know of for a chronograph is the "factory".
Neil, your last sentence says it all, but it would be nice if there was at least a clear reference to chronograph and radar gun registered speeds. Something, anything to take the emphasis off of the 50 yard stake.
Paladin-I agree that a chronograph mounted consistently at the same place in front of the trap is a good way to set targets, unless the chronograph is carried around in a golf cart for the entire shoot. Chronographs are a little sensitive to bumps and vibrations. Radar guns seem to be less sensitive to bumps and they are easily calibrated.
Am important key to setting targets, either by speed or distance, is consistency and that is lacking at many clubs. One inconsistency I have found at clubs who use distance is that some of the 50 yard markers have been placed incorrectly. They should be 66 yards from post three and level with the ground at post three. When setting targets with speed using a hand held radar gun, it is very important to stand at the same place each time and keep the gun at the same angle. I have mounted a small level on top of my gun but this is probably excessive. I strive to set a straight away target from post three between 42-43 MPH. After setting the targets, I always put the radar gun down and carefully look at one or two targets to see if the settings make sense.
Pat Ireland
Am important key to setting targets, either by speed or distance, is consistency and that is lacking at many clubs. One inconsistency I have found at clubs who use distance is that some of the 50 yard markers have been placed incorrectly. They should be 66 yards from post three and level with the ground at post three. When setting targets with speed using a hand held radar gun, it is very important to stand at the same place each time and keep the gun at the same angle. I have mounted a small level on top of my gun but this is probably excessive. I strive to set a straight away target from post three between 42-43 MPH. After setting the targets, I always put the radar gun down and carefully look at one or two targets to see if the settings make sense.
Pat Ireland
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Pat is right on, and he is keeping it simple. I for one, am strongly in favor of doing away with the 50 yard stake. It is cause for too many comments from shooters who are not familiar with target setting.We have found that the $600 gun is far and away worth it because of the ability to read in 10'ths.When you are setting 10 and 12 fields with varying background, high ground in front of some traps, falling away ground at others, different wind currents because of varying tree lines, a good consistent use of the radar gun and the 10 yard stake is the ONLY way to get the best target for the shooter field to field.
JMHO. Thanks, Bob Hawkes
JMHO. Thanks, Bob Hawkes
I have set them just about everywhere in the south.Chronos have problems just like radar guns do.The chronos in afternoon or morning sun will not read consistently either.Try setting targets at dark for shoot-offs with one.No light no FPS.
Radar guns are a great tool also but if you have 8 different setters at a big shoot it has to be done the same on all traps.I do prefer the method of laying the gun on the trap-house but Neil is correct 42mph will not make it fly 49yds.It will go about 47-47.5 in still air conditions.
Personally if all possibly I still prefer a 50yd stake a heigth pole to get it exact.The targets will be just as good because it really depends on the knowledge that the setter has.
CIM
Radar guns are a great tool also but if you have 8 different setters at a big shoot it has to be done the same on all traps.I do prefer the method of laying the gun on the trap-house but Neil is correct 42mph will not make it fly 49yds.It will go about 47-47.5 in still air conditions.
Personally if all possibly I still prefer a 50yd stake a heigth pole to get it exact.The targets will be just as good because it really depends on the knowledge that the setter has.
CIM
I have set them just about everywhere in the south.Chronos have problems just like radar guns do.The chronos in afternoon or morning sun will not read consistently either.Try setting targets at dark for shoot-offs with one.No light no FPS.
Radar guns are a great tool also but if you have 8 different setters at a big shoot it has to be done the same on all traps.I do prefer the method of laying the gun on the trap-house but Neil is correct 42mph will not make it fly 49yds.It will go about 47-47.5 in still air conditions.
Personally if all possibly I still prefer a 50yd stake a heigth pole to get it exact.The targets will be just as good because it really depends on the knowledge that the setter has.
CIM
Radar guns are a great tool also but if you have 8 different setters at a big shoot it has to be done the same on all traps.I do prefer the method of laying the gun on the trap-house but Neil is correct 42mph will not make it fly 49yds.It will go about 47-47.5 in still air conditions.
Personally if all possibly I still prefer a 50yd stake a heigth pole to get it exact.The targets will be just as good because it really depends on the knowledge that the setter has.
CIM
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4,278 Posts
Ray 119, There is no way that you could, or should, be moving the 50 yard stake to suit the winds of that day. At our club a westerly breeze is the prevailing or most common wind direction. But there is a tremendous difference in total distance traveled by the target in differing wind conditions. The problem is the shooter only see's the target/distance stake relationship on a LOST target.It is not uncommon on some days with a changing weather front coming through for the wind to come from 3 differnt directions during the day. Too many shooters are worried about where the target is landing. Hopefully you've shot it before it has reached it's peak. If you are shooting targets on their way down all day, you're in trouble and that stake 's not going to help. Bob
Pat, there sure does seem to be pros and cons with either piece of equipment. CIM raised the excellent point of no chrono reading in the dark, so that leaves the radar gun or 50 yd stake.
Three weeks ago, while shooting into a strong Northwest wind, the warmed up Pat Trap I was shooting off of threw them to the 49 yard line on average. I went into the trap house and counted the turns on the rubber. One week later, mild wind, similar temperatures, warmed up trap, same height, same number of turns, etc. the Pat was throwing them to the 52 to 52 1/2 yard line. I didn't have my radar gun with me either time, but that would have been the ideal times to read them.
The clubs without a level 50 yd stake have no choice but to use a chrono or radar gun.
Pat and Bob Hawkes' excellent posts show that the emphasis can be taken off of the 50 yard stake, and credibility given to other means of measuring speed. I watched Charlie H. (at least I think it was him) set them at the Iowa State shoot, and he didn't have a problem, at all!
Three weeks ago, while shooting into a strong Northwest wind, the warmed up Pat Trap I was shooting off of threw them to the 49 yard line on average. I went into the trap house and counted the turns on the rubber. One week later, mild wind, similar temperatures, warmed up trap, same height, same number of turns, etc. the Pat was throwing them to the 52 to 52 1/2 yard line. I didn't have my radar gun with me either time, but that would have been the ideal times to read them.
The clubs without a level 50 yd stake have no choice but to use a chrono or radar gun.
Pat and Bob Hawkes' excellent posts show that the emphasis can be taken off of the 50 yard stake, and credibility given to other means of measuring speed. I watched Charlie H. (at least I think it was him) set them at the Iowa State shoot, and he didn't have a problem, at all!
I must agree the best way is with a pole and stakes. But if you have a field or 2 set properly then the use of a radar gun or crono used to set the remaining traps will be very very close.
I must agree with CIM he set targets at the West end of the Grand in Vandalia. I shot those banks and always found the targets consistant. He also watched traps during the events to be sure none changed dramatically. I wish he would set them at the Grand this year. I would be much better than the inconsistant target settings we experienced last year. - Jim
I must agree with CIM he set targets at the West end of the Grand in Vandalia. I shot those banks and always found the targets consistant. He also watched traps during the events to be sure none changed dramatically. I wish he would set them at the Grand this year. I would be much better than the inconsistant target settings we experienced last year. - Jim
Jim,
I appreciate your kind words yes I set them all alike using a chrono and then mointoring with a radar gun.Some would stay the same but the same few traps would always speed up sometimes 1-3.5 mph.
I always did my job to the best of my ability always.maybe I might be rehired Jim.
I appreciate your kind words yes I set them all alike using a chrono and then mointoring with a radar gun.Some would stay the same but the same few traps would always speed up sometimes 1-3.5 mph.
I always did my job to the best of my ability always.maybe I might be rehired Jim.
Would it surprise anyone that some people, like Charlie/cim, can set good targets using any method, while others cannot set good targets no matter what system they use? Could the person setting the targets be more important than the technique applied to set the targets?
Pat Ireland
Pat Ireland
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Interesting. Both Paladin and Charlie comment on the changing speeds of the "spring" day to day and even within the same day. You obviously have the rubber bands in a PAT. We also have a couple of PAT's and find the same thing. Sometimes one will pick up speed and one will sometimes lose a little. It is not enough to be noticed by the shooter on the line. Working with a "mixed" set of machines, PAT,Super Star,and the Winchester hand set, I can tell you that the most consistent spring is the old Winchester.The Star may vary a little but always less than 1/2 MPH. You need the good gun to be able to monitor them that closely.
Pat makes a very good and valid point about the judgement or talents of a well experienced target setter, level target,straight flight,centered field,etc. But you still need the radar gun able to measure in 10'th's to be able to set targets that are the same field to field. Shoot well and have fun, Bob
Pat makes a very good and valid point about the judgement or talents of a well experienced target setter, level target,straight flight,centered field,etc. But you still need the radar gun able to measure in 10'th's to be able to set targets that are the same field to field. Shoot well and have fun, Bob
I also believe what Pat says.The more experience a person has setting targets his ability to deal with the conditions will get you a better target.I won't leave a field till its where it should be.Sometimes I have had to waste some targets to get it right.At Vandalia the last 2 years you had to deal with machines not being in the house correctly which meant you had to adjust all fields somewhat to the left to keep it from throwing the widest right you have ever seen.
CIM
CIM
Nice information Roger, very nice. There is NO replacement for hands on experience. Now, that being said, do you think the 50 yard +or- rule should remain, or could the rules be changed/added, to state a measured velocity coming out of the trap house?
Maybe a combination of parameters, because there are going to be days when no human being will be able to set 34 trap houses the same in 25mph switching winds with the stake alone.
Singles and caps are broken at roughly 32 to 35 yards from the trap. From your posts, it leads me to believe your not a chronograph/radar gun man, but give your opinion on which way of measure you believe would yield the most consistent targets at 32 to 35 yards? Not the easiest, but the most consistent? One measured from the start of flight, or one measured at the end of flight?
In your post, you stated a target with poor spin may require more than 43mph to reach the yardage stake. Should it remain this way? One target coming out at 42mph, and the next house with poor spin, coming out at 43+mph?
Should the ATA be designating speeds registered at the start of flight, or distance traveled at the end of flight, or a combination of both?
Maybe a combination of parameters, because there are going to be days when no human being will be able to set 34 trap houses the same in 25mph switching winds with the stake alone.
Singles and caps are broken at roughly 32 to 35 yards from the trap. From your posts, it leads me to believe your not a chronograph/radar gun man, but give your opinion on which way of measure you believe would yield the most consistent targets at 32 to 35 yards? Not the easiest, but the most consistent? One measured from the start of flight, or one measured at the end of flight?
In your post, you stated a target with poor spin may require more than 43mph to reach the yardage stake. Should it remain this way? One target coming out at 42mph, and the next house with poor spin, coming out at 43+mph?
Should the ATA be designating speeds registered at the start of flight, or distance traveled at the end of flight, or a combination of both?
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