Question for you old timers
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Entry Fee's merely buy the clay...Options played by shooters is where the money comes from. The pool of shooters playing options have dried up, and therefore, the money available to win, has dried up too.
peace.
peace.
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Garry: I will try to answer part of your question...My wife & I were able to trap shoots in the late 70's & early 80's in Reno & Las Vegas Nv. In Reno the Golden West Grand in May & the Fall Hyd shoots were the big money shoots.90% of all the added money was furished by the gambling casino"s.Harolds Club did the shoot for the first few yrs,after they quit,than the Sundower casino pick the shoots up a couple of yrs,than they quit,so than th Peppermill casino picked it up for a few yrs,than they drop out. Durning this time the casnio's had no complusery purse. Shooters only had to pay for registered targets & small ata & state daily fees. I can recall Hyd.champ was $7000.00,runner-up was 3500.00 to $4000.00. Also there was yardage purse & runner-up. Casino also had good added money in singles & doubles,but not as much as Hyd. events At that time,not many RV's @ these Reno shoot. Casino's hope to draw shoots to there casino's for Rms.meals & gambling. For a few of the first yrs. this work,but then shooter found that motel rms could be $30.00 or more cheaper @ motel 6. So returns to the casino's begin to go way down & they stop trying to draw shooters to Reno & their casino's. Same thing happened Los Vegas big Mint casino shoot & Bob Taylor's 100 Grand big money shoot. Allways there is more than one reason why things is this world change,and Iam sure the same is true w/ the money shoots in Nv.,but what i have posted here was the main cause....Steve
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It use to be shooters believed in their abilities. Everyone had the Davy Crockett mentality and most shot model 12's or 31's. And they, including me enjoyed betting on themselves. Things have changed. Perhaps, it's and easer game today and most shooters don't feel they have a reasonable chance because the good shooters are short handicapped with not enough concrete and easy angled targets.
Back during the 70s, when I first shot registered birds, there weren't so many shooters that consistently ran straights. The targets were faster, and the angles wider, and there were no sponsored shooters at anything but the largest shoots. Most of us(everyone that I knew) paid for our shooting out of our own pockets, and received NO sponsorship money of any sort. So, we were all just about equal, as any of us could have a good day or a bad day. We were willing to put our money on our abilities because we had a chance of winning.
These days, not so much. I don't receive free shells, or travel money, or entry fee coverage, or a retainer because I am not a top shot. I would be better if I could afford to practice more, but my funds are limited in retirement. So, why should I spend money on purses that I know I am going to lose because I am not competitive? I would rather have that money to buy some more shells or pay another entry fee another day. The Lewis Purse is the only chance of having a little money come back to you, and it has nothing to do with skill, only luck.
So, my money stays in my pocket and I applaud those who are in the shootoffs everytime, because they are doing a good job at a sport that I love still.
Jack
These days, not so much. I don't receive free shells, or travel money, or entry fee coverage, or a retainer because I am not a top shot. I would be better if I could afford to practice more, but my funds are limited in retirement. So, why should I spend money on purses that I know I am going to lose because I am not competitive? I would rather have that money to buy some more shells or pay another entry fee another day. The Lewis Purse is the only chance of having a little money come back to you, and it has nothing to do with skill, only luck.
So, my money stays in my pocket and I applaud those who are in the shootoffs everytime, because they are doing a good job at a sport that I love still.
Jack
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690 Posts
What caused the money and cars to dry up? I would say Dan Bonillas.
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The price of the cars went way up was one thing. The old car shoots were a seperate option, usually $50 or there abouts. The first car I won was a 1968 Dodge and the club paid around $1800 for it. The second was a 1974 Chev Vega and the club paid the license, tax and title which amounted to around $2600. The last one was a 1980 Chev won at the Kansas Fall Handicap in Wichita and the club paid $4600 I was told for it.
Today if a club wanted to give a car, they would have to pay at least $18,000 and that would be almost impossible to get enough shooters to pay even $100 per entry to cover. A lot because the scores are so high and most shooters do not want to put up $100 that they can break a 99 or 100 and hope they get lucky in the shootoff.
For example, all 3 of the cars I won were won with a score of 98 and only the last one was there a tied score (3). With todays slower targets (less distance) and narrower target angles, most shooters don't feel they have a chance to win so they don't enter or stay at home. Same problem with the option money.
Widen the targets and pour concrete for additional yardage and the sport would see shooters have more confidence in their chances.
Today if a club wanted to give a car, they would have to pay at least $18,000 and that would be almost impossible to get enough shooters to pay even $100 per entry to cover. A lot because the scores are so high and most shooters do not want to put up $100 that they can break a 99 or 100 and hope they get lucky in the shootoff.
For example, all 3 of the cars I won were won with a score of 98 and only the last one was there a tied score (3). With todays slower targets (less distance) and narrower target angles, most shooters don't feel they have a chance to win so they don't enter or stay at home. Same problem with the option money.
Widen the targets and pour concrete for additional yardage and the sport would see shooters have more confidence in their chances.
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Back in those days, almost everyone played the purses and options.
I remember one time in Las Vegas the guy in front of me at the window was asked what he wanted to shoot. "Everything!" And when asked what options he wanted to play, "Everything!"
Back in those days, (when I could shoot good scores) I usually came home with more money than I had when I left. Now I shoot because it is an addiction.
I remember one time in Las Vegas the guy in front of me at the window was asked what he wanted to shoot. "Everything!" And when asked what options he wanted to play, "Everything!"
Back in those days, (when I could shoot good scores) I usually came home with more money than I had when I left. Now I shoot because it is an addiction.
I am going to presume that since you asked about cars and money that you are wondering about the big money purses offered.
The cars I think generally lost money for the club via additional option. But the club hoped to increase revenue generated via extra shooters to not only cover the loss on car/cars but make additional over and above what could be expected without such a prize. Same with the big purses offered. The purses generally had a number baseline stipulation yo pay off as projected. I've seen it also done with cars.
Then as Neal stated for cars. Money just got to scary to guarantee any amount as well in hopes of increasing shooter base.
The cars I think generally lost money for the club via additional option. But the club hoped to increase revenue generated via extra shooters to not only cover the loss on car/cars but make additional over and above what could be expected without such a prize. Same with the big purses offered. The purses generally had a number baseline stipulation yo pay off as projected. I've seen it also done with cars.
Then as Neal stated for cars. Money just got to scary to guarantee any amount as well in hopes of increasing shooter base.
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Some of the bigger Nevada shoots also had compulsory purses on the last two handicaps!! Thats the big money purses often talked about being won in Nevada. The shooters didn't mind and went for the gold!
Neal, do you personally know of any other shooter during the car era winning more than 3 cars? I read somewhere the most won was 2 but see that figure was wrong also.
I managed to snitch one from Dan B. at Bob Taylors in the early 70s with a 98 also. His 97 was high all day till the kid and an old squirrel gun came down the line with desire in his eye!
Hap
Neal, do you personally know of any other shooter during the car era winning more than 3 cars? I read somewhere the most won was 2 but see that figure was wrong also.
I managed to snitch one from Dan B. at Bob Taylors in the early 70s with a 98 also. His 97 was high all day till the kid and an old squirrel gun came down the line with desire in his eye!
Hap
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218 Posts
Hap, Arnold Reiger only won 2 cars as reported by Dick Baldwin in his book on the history of trapshooting. I personally don't know of anyone else winning 3 or more, but I feel it is possible that Britt Robinson may have. I know Steve Carmichael won one at Wichita, KS because he and I were tied going into the last 5 targets while shooting adjacent posts when I missed one for a 96 and he won the car with a 97. I was already thinking about the shootoff when I missed it.
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578 Posts
The past three Ohio State Shoots we gave away cars in '10 and '11 and a Harley cycle in'12. It was done by a combo of entrees each event and drawing shooters from each event, then a shoot off. The State Association made money each year on this option, but not much, a grand or so each year.
I never won a car, still frustrates me today. Lot's of runner ups over the years. I shot car shoots in Iowa, Vegas, Ohio, Illinois, Kansas and I sure other states.
Money shooters have died off or moved out and not been replaced. Neil Crausbay got it right. New shooters just starting out today can't compete, not enough experience. Also in the "old days" you couldn't pick your spot to shoot as easy, we moved fields, switched ends, shot 25 to a trap. Lots of things about the game was tougher.
Bob Taylor's club was famous for clearing out the drunk tank to get pullers and scorers. If you had trouble with slow pulls you either learned how to hit them or went home.
Brad
I never won a car, still frustrates me today. Lot's of runner ups over the years. I shot car shoots in Iowa, Vegas, Ohio, Illinois, Kansas and I sure other states.
Money shooters have died off or moved out and not been replaced. Neil Crausbay got it right. New shooters just starting out today can't compete, not enough experience. Also in the "old days" you couldn't pick your spot to shoot as easy, we moved fields, switched ends, shot 25 to a trap. Lots of things about the game was tougher.
Bob Taylor's club was famous for clearing out the drunk tank to get pullers and scorers. If you had trouble with slow pulls you either learned how to hit them or went home.
Brad
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Brad, I'm sure you remember the shoot at Taylor's that was bitterly cold and the wine-ohs (sp?) he gathered up from the street in front of the unemployment offce were so poorly dressed that they were actually shaking so bad they couldn't write the score or pull the button. Their noses dripping on the score sheet didn't help much either.
Someone passed the hat and the shooters kicked in several hundred dollars which was spent at the Army Surplus store buying them blankets and jackets which helped tremendously. And yes Brad, you shot bad pulls or you just quit and went home because that was as good as it was going to get. Seems he had around 800 shooters at that shoot. Those were the days.
Someone passed the hat and the shooters kicked in several hundred dollars which was spent at the Army Surplus store buying them blankets and jackets which helped tremendously. And yes Brad, you shot bad pulls or you just quit and went home because that was as good as it was going to get. Seems he had around 800 shooters at that shoot. Those were the days.
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Maybe part of it was that in 1969, dealer cost on a new Mustang Mach1 with 351 4V Windsor,4 speed, etc. (everything except maybe A/C) was $3000. Granted, if you plug that into the inflation calculator it gets sort of scary today ($18.5K), BUT, if you consider a beer company sponsor or arms company bought it for a major event, it was a pittance (and would be today) for them.
I guess the sponsors evidently either want to keep their money, or spend it elsewhere.
Bob Falfa
I guess the sponsors evidently either want to keep their money, or spend it elsewhere.
Bob Falfa
The reason the money dried up is very simple.
Easier targets equals more high scores. The abundance of high scores means there is a lower probability your going to make a profit on your purse and option money when you do shoot the occasional high handicap score.
The idea that you could shoot the occasional high handicap score and get a substantial pay-out was why there were many more shooters playing the money when the targets were more difficult to break.
Jerry Hauser
Easier targets equals more high scores. The abundance of high scores means there is a lower probability your going to make a profit on your purse and option money when you do shoot the occasional high handicap score.
The idea that you could shoot the occasional high handicap score and get a substantial pay-out was why there were many more shooters playing the money when the targets were more difficult to break.
Jerry Hauser
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