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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
upload_2016-11-25_10-3-38.png


Was having my breakfast yesterday and noticed the above on the bottom of the cereal box. My guess is this is a test for color and positioning. I bet the machines adjust themselves via a seeing eye. What's the story?

Also noticed a giant Universal Product Code on the side.

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This is from Aldi who prints a upc on every side of their boxes so the clerk can check you out as fast as possible. I really like that store. They solved their "cart in the parking lot" problem with a quarter deposit you can get back at the cart corral. One of my favorite stores because of their efficiency and prices. Their top end beef is pretty good. We like is so much we had steak for Thanksgiving instead of turkey.
 

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CMYC is printing code for the color balance. It indicates to the printer how much (percentage wise) of the basic color pallet is blended to produce the image. There is another standard too called Pantone. Again, the Pantone numbers , for example 350C) denote the percentage of the primary colors used to produce a particular tint.
 

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Joe...If you don't need color, go with a laser printer...The color cartridges will put you in the poor house..
 

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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Ah, here's a link to more about printing.

CMYK color model - Wikipedia



C is for Cyan,
M is for Magenta,
Y is for Yellow,
and K is for Key or BlacK.

Notice Yellow and Cyan gives Green, Cyan and Magenta give Blue and Magenta and Yellow produce Red. Put all 3 of the original together and you get Black. This is all done on a white background according to the wiki reference.
 

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That square contains the primary colors used in printing. Cyan, Magenta,Yellow and Black thus, CMY K. These colors mixed together in very specific amounts can make all colors we can possibly see.

These colors are printed separately over a duplicate image using a dotted, or screened image, when the printing plates are created (Burned). Each plate has these very small dots in variation as an image, and as the colors are printed over the same image results in the colors our eyes mix together as the colors we see. If you look real close at a printed image you can see this.

Often you will also see +'s as a reference to align the image. These are to make sure the image is perfectly aligned with all the colors being printed. Otherwise the image is blurred, or distorted.

Four years of Graphic Arts classes in high school. At least I can say I learned something while there. LOL
 
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I see you beat me to it while I was typing.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Ok, and then there's "D - P =" along with .90, .54 and .25 down along the lighter and lighter printed boxes. What's that all about?
 

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Now ask yourself how color television works. Three colors. Make millions of shades. NOT CMY-K.
 

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Now ask yourself how color television works. Three colors. Make millions of shades. NOT CMY-K.
The basic difference are between transmissive colors like the RBG of a color tv or computer monitor and the reflective colors CYMK used in printed things. A transmissive color is actually generating that particular red, green and/or blue light. Adding them in particular amounts gives you all the colors of the visible spectrum. Printed documents on the other hand only reflect the light that is illuminating them. Some colors will be absorbed in the document and not reflected in a CYMK style. If you want to try sometime, look at a printed color document under white light and then again under a colored light. There can be a very major difference depending on the color of the light and color of the printed document.

That is why, for critical uses like graphic design, the computer offers various settings which change what the monitor displays to shift the color balance (ratios of the three primary light colors) to match a particular application or use.
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
look at a printed color document under white light and then again under a colored light.
And then do the same with a computer monitor. The paper will show a difference, but the computer monitor won't. That's your point, right? One is reflective, the other is transmitive. Ok.
 

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Sony rgb, Adobe rgb, HP rgb, etc. Printing in color was done for a long time in the rgb+black mode. Colors can be rendered in many ways. Your tv and monitor, when they were crt generated, used three electron guns to excite one of three phosphor dots. Papers were printed using rgb as were photographs. One side does not fit all.
 

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Maybe if you ask these same questions in the Impala heater forum or snowblower forum, or lawnmower forum, it would be more appropriate? We here are TRAPSHOOTERS!
 

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That square contains the primary colors used in printing. Cyan, Magenta,Yellow and Black thus, CMY K. These colors mixed together in very specific amounts can make all colors we can possibly see.

These colors are printed separately over a duplicate image using a dotted, or screened image, when the printing plates are created (Burned). Each plate has these very small dots in variation as an image, and as the colors are printed over the same image results in the colors our eyes mix together as the colors we see. If you look real close at a printed image you can see this.

Often you will also see +'s as a reference to align the image. These are to make sure the image is perfectly aligned with all the colors being printed. Otherwise the image is blurred, or distorted.

Four years of Graphic Arts classes in high school. At least I can say I learned something while there. LOL
Need to go back to school. :)
CMYK are not primary colors but are known as subtractive colors or in the printing field as the subtractive color model or commonly called "process color". The primary colors would be red, yellow, blue. In offset printing you would create a large negative of a picture using both a filter and a screen. The filter will block colors or only allow certain colors to come through and the screen is used to break up the picture into the dots. When using a filter the negative is known as a halftone negative. There will usually be 4 negatives if you are printing in color (such as a picture). The negatives are used to burn the plates (again at least 4 - 1 for each negative). The plates are affixed to the drums on the offset printing press. Using the four colors already mentioned you can print out what looks like a picture until you get up close or use a magnifying glass and then you can see the dots. Sometimes for certain things printed they will use a 5th or 6th color instead of blending the colors. Smuckers Jelly comes to mind. This would use 6 colors instead of 4 to print the labels for the jars. It would use 2 variants of the color purple. The screen size used depends on the quality of the presses and the media it's printing on. Newspaper will use 85 to 110 dpi (dots per inch) while your typical flyer/magazine will use 300 dpi.

And then do the same with a computer monitor. The paper will show a difference, but the computer monitor won't. That's your point, right? One is reflective, the other is _______. I don't know the word.
Are you thinking subtractive or refractive?

The K in CMYK originally stored for Key because the black color plate was once referred to as the key plate. With the arrival of color lasers and ink jets it's more commonly now referred to as blacK since there is no need for a Key anymore with these technologies.

As for what the codes mean have a read here and see if you can figure it out. Pantone®, Color, And What I Wish I'd Known

PS my family owned a printing company for over 40 years. I think I could run every piece of equipment by the time I was 12. Before going on to college I went to a Tech school for printing and advertising and then 3 different mechanic schools offered by the manufactures of the different presses. I earned good money at the time because having a company mechanic come to your shop was expensive so I worked the Phila area for other printers as well. As Computers came on the scene I was an early adopter and learned to program (again working for other companies as well). I eventually got interested more in computers then the printing world and sort of switched professions.
 

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Discussion Starter #15
Cayers, after reading the article you referenced I believe what I saw on the bottom of my cereal box is for human use during the printing process, not for a 'seeing eye' that adjusts the color for you automatically. I was surprised to read that color printing is not an exact science and that you still must look at the results to know where you're at. So what do you do now with computers? I happen to be a database programmer.
 

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These days much of the printing field is controlled by computers and real-time scanners. Back in the day we had to actually calculate expose time and f stop settings on the cameras. Had to manually develop the negatives and it truly was a craft. I was very good at this and would do a lot of work for other companies. I could due things like hold up the negatives to red lights (doesn't affect the exposure) to finger rub the negatives with chemicals to over develop sections for uniqueness that now a days is done by computers. Now-a-days the equipment is so sophisticated that the equipment does the work for you. Of course the printing industry is almost gone these days and has been replaced by high speed laser printers and copiers. People no longer go to the local print shop but instead go to Staples, Office Depot, etc...

I do everything from hardware to software engineering to large networks. I can program in more then 10 languages (probably around 20). I do mostly system architecture these days. I've worked for SmithKline Pharm, Mobile, Subaru (architected and wrote their warranty system that integrates with dealers all over the country). Got highly involved with a company called OSI doing real time acquisition and database storage that was more than 100 times faster then any RDMS database, which lead to some work for Airline Manufactures which translated to what is commonly called "black box"/flight recorder or specifically the flight data recorder (FDR) for those who know what they are. This was basically all very fast acquisition and storage/logging using very small footprint code. Which lead to working for NASA then the NSA. From there I went back to the private sector and was the CIO of an Airline company then went back to my roots as an entrepreneur and have been doing consulting mostly as of late.

I know most of the RDMS pretty well including Sybase, IBM DB2, SQLite, Informix, Ingres, PostgreSQL, Oracle, SQL Server (probably used most) & MySQL. Done a bit with Teradata as well. Most of my coding these days is C# since that's what a majority of companies seem to like best these days. I don't care for Java much so it's rare for me to work with that.

While working for my Dad's printing company in my young teens I started learning programming (BASIC, Pascal and C) and built a large BBS system (for those that remember the good old BBS systems). I worked with a guy named Tim Stryker (Galacticomm) creating drivers and libraries for multiple com port cards and then X.25 protocols. I was running a couple of 255 phone line BBS system with two X.25 (frame relay) connections to Princeton University and had one of the first non government/education systems hooked to what became known as the Internet. I started building up POPs (point of presence) around the country so people could connect with a local phone number. I ran one of the first commercial BBSs and marketed it to certain sectors like real-estate agents. They would use it for the "forums" and personal private communication which we would today call Email. Of course I also ran pure entertainment BBSs as well but no where near as profitable. That's how I got started in bigger networking stuff and dealing with telcos on leased lines and stuff. Ended up selling 540 POPs to a company called CompuServe (anyone remember them?) when I was 19.
This was pre "web" days and Gopher ruled the land back then. Anyway that's how I got started in the computer field.
 

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Discussion Starter #17 (Edited)
Haha! I suspected you might be the guy to ask this question: I'm working with SQL Server and have a couple of rather large views that were slowing down one of the business processes I wrote years ago. I couldn't tell what the slow parts were, so I took the main sql statement apart, where clause by where clause and found the culprits to be these two views. In atomic form there are two dozen queries that make up the larger process. All of them are supported by indexes appropriately according to the dba staff at the company where I work. When I looked at the views I found I could speed them up dramatically by handing them chunks of data in a loop until they were done. For example, I had 180,000 'accounts' to run a view on and if I chunked it in groups of 10 or 20k accounts, the thing would finish the whole 180k in less than 10 minutes instead of 7 hours. Then I discovered a shelf whereby the views would perform very slowly once again. On the first day it was 30k accounts, then 20. We believe this is caused by SQL Server swapping everything out to disk beyond a certain limit based on demands at the moment.

What I need is a metric in SQL Server by which to base my chunk size so I can get the best efficiency in a chunk size which I can vary. The other guys in the office think I should just use 10k chunks and be done with it. I've looked, but don't spend much time in SQL Server internals. So have you got any suggestions on SQL Server metrics I might use to look at what's going on internally and impacting the swap to disk moment, ie my chunk size at the shelf?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Also note that I wrote a chunk logger that tells me how long it takes to handle each chunk loop. I've found the first 3 or so chunks can take upwards of 7, 8 or 9 seconds after which it goes down to 1 second each. This is amazing to me and supports the position that I should just pick a chunk size under the know shelves and let SQL Server do it's think. Opinion?
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I've tried a couple of metrics in my logger, but nothing every varied from chunk to chunk. BTW, the DBAs looked at indexes used by the views and they claim there's nothing to add. I cannot have a slow down in my daily process as the customer complains severely.
 

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WOW, super hard to answer without or even guess without seeing the DB schema and SQL.

What version of SQL Server are you running?
What hardware?
RAID and if so what level?
Spindle or SSDs?
How is your temp setup? Same or different disks? Is the temp space and master DB setup with adequate size to handle your queries or is the DB setup to incrementally add space as needed (killer on performance for large queries).
How much memory installed and how much before running process? What does it dip to?
Are there a lot of joins in the SQL?
Are you maxing out your IO when not processing the chunks? Do you see the wait counts increasing in perfmon on the disks?
Do you have any performance logs?
Have you ran the SQL through SQL analyzer to see what's going on and to make sure it's using indexes properly?
DBAs can look at indexes and see them there but that doesn't mean SQL Server actually uses them (sounds stupid but true).

What are the primary key types on the tables? Roughly how many tables involved in the queries?
 
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