The newest M&P models are supposed to have several flaws cleared up.
I don't care much for the 357 Sig round for several reasons.
IT IS LOUD. It will damage your hearing, and those around you, if you touch some off in a defensive situation. In an indoor range, it is uncomfortable to be around.
IT IS A ROMAN CANDLE. The 357 Sig has a ferocious muzzle flash, and will destroy your night vision the first shot. You have about an 80% chance to get into a Lethal Confrontation in Reduced Light (or No Light) conditions.
IT WILL RICOCHET. This round has more potential for ricochet damage than the standard round from the AR-15 Patrol Rifle!
IT WILL OVERPENETRATE. The first generation of 357 ammo used standard 9mm bullets, which would over expand and under penetrate. The ammo makers over compensated, and now the bullets are TOO TOUGH.
IT IS EXPENSIVE. Not being a standard like the 9X19 and 40, it is more expensive, and factory fodder is more limited in variety.
IT DOES NOT RELOAD WELL. Although it is a bottle necked cartridge, it headspaces on the case mouth. This tends to produce inconsistent chambers between gunmakers. By the time the shoulder is bumped back enough from range brass to work in your gun, the brass is overworked, and case life is short.
BOTTOM LINE. If you want more horsepower than the 9X19, the 40 is the Gold Standard in standard frame guns. The 40 is so efficient in what it does that the 45 Auto in its bigger frame simply does not offer a worthwhile advantage.
Remember, the 40 is loaded to Magnum handgun pressures of 35,700 PSI. It IS a magnum!
I shoot an M & P 9mm and am very pleased with it. I have shot about 5,000 rounds thru it with no jams. What sold me on the M & P was the adjustable size of the grip. It is very comfortable in my hand whereas the Glock was too boxy and didn't feel right in my hand. You can't go wrong with the M & P.
Just my opinion.
Another vote for black-flagging the 357 sig because of too expensive, loud and muzzle blast. Sold all my 40's with several police action shootings I observed with poor performance and multiple shots needed. Now strictly carry 9mm with premium +P ammo, easy for my wife to handle too.
deercreek, I'm interested in learning more about your experiences involving "several police action shootings with poor performance & multiple shots needed". I am not asking for names, dates, places...just "sanitized" but more informative descriptions of what happened. Reason: my friends claim a .40 is the way to go...interested in the "rest of the story" from your experience. Thanks and Regards, Ed
First was in the left arm with 180gr., traveled up the arm for about four inches and that was it! Guy went to hospital and was released in several hours.
Another was a shooting here in my small town. Two officers both with Glock 22', 180 gr. Federal Hydra-shoks. Two shots to the hips and one sideways through top to middle torso. This guy was in hospital for two days and walked out on his own power.
Two good friends on local PD has shot a number of stray/aggressive dogs in all sizes. All with 40's and 165-180 gr. loads. I know of one of those dogs that dropped right away and the rest of them run.
My best friend is a Federal agent in charge of firearms/qualifications for his office. They carry 155gr loads and I think many have found that the light weight bullet in 40's is much more effective. With that said they must keep an exact record of rounds fired because this ammo is so hot, many of the females and wimps have trouble handling it. Don't get me wrong, it is capable of doing the job. For me it is not worth the extra ammo cost. I like the fact that 9mm premium ammo has advanced so much and the fact I can quickly and accurately put several 9mm rounds where they need to be. It is also a big plus for me for my wife to pick up any of my guns and handle it well without difficulty.
Maybe we should go back to a nice 38 caliber S&W revolver. Safe to carry, accurate, reliable, and inexpensive ammo for practice. I know it only has six shots. But, I advise that if you don't get'um with the first six, leave the area forthwith. HMB
I disagree that the 40 is a magnum. It is a downsized and reduced version of the 10mm which could be called a magnum. The 40 is a fine round but not the equivalent of a good .45, albeit a little more compact. Ammo companies are finally upgrading it to "almost" as good status. IMHO.
If I had to depend on any of the four (9/40/10/45) in a defensive situation it would rank as follows: none...give me a shotgun. Failing that, .45, .40, 9, 10...only because the 10 is harder to control. I've shot all of them fairly extensively (the 10 less than the others).
deercreek, thanks for describing these situations. My friend who is pretty knowledgeable about handguns recommends I get a .40 M&P instead of a .45 M&P (which I prefer). The concealed carry class instructor who handled the class I attended was a veteran police officer with an impressive resume of his training experience and expertise. He doesn't like .40s, and raves about Glock 9mm. Thanks for sharing your experiences. Best Regards, Ed
In the shooting events I've seen, the .40 is a rather dismal performer and will not come close to all the hype that its a good fighting round. In fact, the 9mm has been a better performer all the way around. The other bad news is the .45 isn't much better. Two that I've seen using Golden Saber were a real let down on performance too. They worked but then where they hit, a .22 would have worked.
Just can't see any reason to subject the shooter to more cost, recoil and punishment when the 9mm will do about all you need.
The difference in power between a 9mm, .40 and .45 is pretty small when you look at the numbers. They are all low capacity cases and there just isn't that much difference.
Shooting coach has a valid point or two but:
They are all loud to the unprotected ears and will damage your hearing in a confined space. Far worse than a .357 will be a 16" .223 inside a small room. The difference in the Sig round and a +P something else is minimal.
Muzzle flash in a dark environment is somewhat offset if you're using a flashlight so it hasn't been that big of a deal.
All handgun rounds have a higher potential for ricochet than most .223 rounds and the .357 Sig isn't any more likely to than the other handgun rounds.
The .40 is not any more efficient than the 9mm or .45 and does not deliver any significant power advantage over the .45. In fact, over time, the .45 will impart less stress to the gun (and the shooter)than the .40 as they both run about the same powder charges with the .45 turning out less pressure for the same performance.
I like the S&W M&P, and I like the 357 Sig round. I've shot the Sig round in Sig handguns, but not yet in the M&P. I've watched many thousands of rounds a year of them go downrange. For me it recoils just how I'd expect, slightly lighter than the .40 S&W & slightly more than the 9mm. Both are very adequate rounds, but neither one is a miracle. The M&P is very easy to shoot and control in .40, and I'd expect it to be even a little easier to control in the .357. I'd expect my wife or daughter could control an M&P in .357 just fine. It's a rimless .357 Magnum, so will end a confrontation just fine, with appropriate ammo, as will a .40 S&W. I personally think you'd be wise to just keep your 9mm, like you say, and spend a few hundred on more mags, some premium ammo like Winchester Ranger, Speer Gold Dot, or Remington Golden Saber, and a few thousand rounds of practice ammo, then shoot it regularly. Master your 9mm and carry these best ammo's in it. Your cool confidence and shot placement will matter most. Phil E
Seems shot placement would rule over caliber in most situations. Training helps with the problem.
Was shooting IDPA with a retired seal (according to him and I have no reason not to believe him) who had a Berretta 92 and some of the old army folks were giving him a hard time because he wasn't shooting a .45. His response was 2 in the chest 1 in the head what's the difference. Needless to say he smoked the rest of the group and took 1st place.Was ro and watched him step out from cover and place 3 shots in the zone in under 1.5 seconds. Hard to argue with experience.
Personally I have an old 10mm that I dearly love. 165 gr soooped up 40. I shoot well with it. Pick one you like and train with it until it is like shooting trap, a learned response.
One redeeming feature of the .357 Sig is that is a bottle neck cartridge. They usually tend to be a more reliable feeder than some other straighter cartridges. I own several handguns, so chambered. It is not all that horrible to shoot and I have not had one failure to feed with close to 10,000 rounds fired through these guns. My most lightweight/compact .357 Sig is a handful, but so was the original .40 S&W chambering in that gun. Handloading is no problem. Brass can be found if you look around. Decent bullets have been made to suit the round. There were some that were not appropriate, but most seem to be about right. Some loads made for law enforcement have projectiles that seem to be too tough, so The coach might be right there. They apparently have different needs. I had done some hunting with one of mine and saw no lack of effectiveness with the load I was using when matched to the game. I also have several 10MMs and really like them too. I guess I'm not that recoil sensitive. You can tell the difference in recovery time with some of the heavier recoiling loads
To OK Shooter: Two friends of mine have the M&P 9mm and as they shoot, the magazine is released. This is caused by their thumbs hitting the magazine release (right handed shooters). I shot one and same thing happened to me. As the gun recoiled, my thumb would hit the magazine release and without knowing this, the magazine would slip down a little and no shell would be fed in the chamber. Has this ever happened to you? I shoot a .45 1911 and this has never happened. Darrell
BT100dc, if you are right handed, then I'm going to guess that when you grip the gun with your shooting hand, the thumb points down almost at the mag release, then you put your support hand over the top of the shooting hand thumb. When you put pressure on the support thumb, it basically pushes the shooting hand thumb into the mag release. May or may not happen with a particular gun based on different frame sizes.
Basically this type of a grip is an improper grip and not very effecient in controlling the gun and problems like this are a by-product of that type of grip.