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Should the method of classifying shooters for HAA and HOA be changed

  • Yes - change to use "composite" average

    Votes: 50 57.5%
  • No - use the traditional methods

    Votes: 37 42.5%
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
The idea of changing the method used to classify shooters for High All Around (HAA) and High Over All (HOA) was recently proposed to me.

I don't have any particular influence on such a decision, so I thought that I'd throw this idea out there and let the folks here weigh in on it.

Keep in mind that this idea is not being considered by the ATA at this time.

This is is just a sort of "thought" experiment.

The idea:

Use a shooters "composite" average to determine their class for use in determining HAA and HOA awards.

Some background:

Believe it or not, there is nothing in the Rule Book that establishes the method of classification for HAA and HOA awards. Traditionally, for HOA, a shooter is put in the class that they are in for the first singles event of that particular shoot's HOA. And for HAA, a shooter is put in the class that they are in for the Singles Championship event. So a shooter's HAA and HOA classification is entirely determined by their singles shooting ability. Additionally, if a shooter is advanced a class, or classes, prior to the HAA, they will be competing in a different class for HAA than they are in for HOA.

A shooter's composite average is the "average" of their singles, handicap, and doubles averages (the sum of the three averages divided by 3).

Implementing the change:

In order to affect this change it is possible that a rule might need to be established. And a table of suggested classifications would have to be developed.

Although, as it stands right now, shoot management could use this method just by publishing it in their program.

It is understood that computer cashiering programs would need to be changed to accommodate this additional piece of data, but many rule changes affect such programs without adverse effect.

Hoped for result:

It is hoped that by classifying shooters using an average that reflects their "overall" ability it would encourage more people to compete in the Overall and All Around events.

Your thoughts?

Don't forget to vote in the poll.

Even if you don't leave a comment, at least leave a vote.


Thanks
 

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I always thought it was "fair" as it. Most people have their highest average in singles, so they are classified at the top of their game.

I dont see it moving many people as a D singles is most likely a D doubles.

Now if you want to talk about getting rid of the categories, lets have that discussion.
 

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I like your idea better than the way the current system works. I assume if you have under some number of targets, you would have to default to the current classification. What I mean is if someone has no doubles targets you can't use zero for the average, otherwise everyone would be fall into the lowest class.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
What I mean is if someone has no doubles targets you can't use zero for the average, otherwise everyone would be fall into the lowest class.
Correct. Such a person might be put in "B" class HOA/HAA, or some other class based on "known ability" as is done currently with the singles and doubles.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Don't forget to vote in the poll.

Even if you don't leave a comment, at least leave a vote.

Thanks
 

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Discussion Starter #7
As Mr. Winston has reminded us, repeatedly, and correctly, proposed changes need accompanying data.

So, I went to the data for the just completed target year and pulled the averages for those shooters who had shot at least 500 targets in each discipline.

I then calculated their composite averages and, using the six class doubles scheme as the break out of the HOA/HAA classes, I compared the "HAA/HOA Class" with the shooter's six class singles class.


HOA_HAA_Class.jpg


Making sense of the data:

Currently we would expect to see 296 shooters classified as AAA when competing in an HOA or HAA.

Whereas using their composite averages, there would only be 38 shooters who would qualify to be in the AAA HOA/HAA (which I've abbreviated as CClass in the table above.)

The actual class break out for a HOA/HAA classification may be different than the one used in this example. It was just easier to use an existing one rather than make one up.

Data from a number of years would have to be used to determine what the best class break out would be.

However, this data does show that the current singles classes are composed of a range shooters with abilities that span the current classifications when handicap and doubles are taken in to consideration.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
Here are the handicap "classes" (HClass) and doubles classes (DClass) compared to the singles class.

For the HClass I again used the six-class doubles scheme.

HOA_HAA_Class-2.jpg
 

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So you want to thin the AAA ranks a little and move the balance into other classes. A No vote here.

If you want to win maybe a little more practice is the way to go instead of seeding the other classes with AAA classed shooters who can't compete with AAA shooters.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
So you want to thin the AAA ranks a little and move the balance into other classes. A No vote here.

If you want to win maybe a little more practice is the way to go instead of seeding the other classes with AAA classed shooters who can't compete with AAA shooters.

Hate to disappoint you, but this doesn't have anything at all to do with me.

This is an idea that was mentioned to me and I said I'd post it here and provide a little data to see how it looks.


I've used the recommended six class schemes so that the data would be a little more spread out.

In a five class scheme "AAA" shooters would be classified as AA. So moving the bulk of them into AA in a six class scheme is really no change.

But D class shooters, true D class shooters at the composite level, are currently competing with B and C class composite shooters. In a six class composite scheme, they are less likely to be competing against B and C class shooters.
 

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I like the idea. I did a mock up of my averages and using your chart puts me in B composite class. That makes a LOT of sense to me. I am currently an A or AA singles shooter. (96.5 after 500 targets this year) My singles game has really come around here in the last few months, but my Handicap and doubles are struggling. When competing in A or AA HOA/HAA I have pretty near zero chance of doing well at all. In B class I would have a chance to place.

I hope my Hcap and Doubles comes around this target year, but until then, the composite would be a welcome addition.
 

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Hoped for result:

It is hoped that by classifying shooters using an average that reflects their "overall" ability it would encourage more people to compete in the Overall and All Around events.

Your thoughts?
This in turn could lead to added entries as those shooters now feel they can compete for HAA and HOA.
 

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I guess we would need to start keeping a running average of Caps, since we do not do it now
 

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I know they do at years end but do they calculate it as scores are sent in? It does not show on the updated average card or on the Shooter's info center.
Right next to your Handicap targets shot to the right is your running handicap average on the Shooter Information Center.


Example:
image.png
 

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With either scheme, there are going to be some that win, and some that lose. If you look at Gussers' post #12, you will see, he will make out, but then have an advantage over a lesser 16 yard shooter, average caps and double shooter.

I would guess, without any data, that C and D class single shooters are also at the bottom of caps and doubles, they are the ones that are going to be hurt. However, I also would guess, without any data, a AA or A 16yd shooter, would be a mid range caps, and mid range doubles, that would drop them down, now competing with the two lowest classes.
 

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should the combined average be calculated by adding the three disipline's averages together and divided by three or should it be calculated by total targets broken divided by targets shot at?
 
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