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Discussion Starter #1
I know that there are several shooters that say not to load promo in subgauge shells, however I talked to the tech guy at alliant and he told me that you can load 3/4 oz. loads and recommended that I start around 12 grains, so today I loaded AA hulls winchester 209 primer cb1075-20 wads with 11.7 grains of promo and went to the gun club and shot a round of skeet. The outcome was, I believe I found my new favorite load, it had a light recoil, burned clean, and broke targets, what more could a guy ask for? I shoot a citori with purbaugh tubes which was my greatest concern with pressures but I believe my concerns are now void as I have been loading with unique and even loading a full grain light from the recipe and the promo actually had a lighter recoil. Does anyone else use this load and what was your experience? Joe
 

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Unless they were able to give you a PSI for the load, I wouldn't use it. Charge weight and recoil WILL NOT determine shell pressure.

I do not see any 20ga loads for Promo (or by extension Red Dot) listed on their website.

Call back and ask what the PSI is, then compare to your current load. If they can't give you a PSI, proceed with EXTREME caution. I doubt the load is dangerous or they wouldn't give it to you, but it may not be tube-friendly, and the results will be costly if it isn't.

If you crack one of your purbaugh tubes, your only option is to buy a brand new tube from Briley or kolar, which will be $300-$400. Briley used to install their chambers on damaged Purbaugh tubes, but the cost was pretty close to that of just buying a whole new tube, and I don't think they even do that work any longer.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
cp,


I was looking for the name I wrote down and can't find it, but when I talked to him I let him know that I was shooting tubes and had A LOT of concern about pressures being too high, he said that he would not worry about that at all and that the pressures would not exceed what the tubes were designed for as long as I did not exceed 12.5 grains. Joe
 

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The following came from a post on shotgunworld.com and is not my development. Use at your own risk:
QUOTE
20 GAUGE PROMO LITE

This is the most recent version of an unpublished light 20 gauge Promo recipe cooked up by some of us here on SGW. It's been revised to reflect more recent data and some necessary warnings. I've hunted down and updated a number of them, but earlier versions of this recipe may remain elsewhere on this board.

This is the only recipe to use. The various warnings must be observed and the lower shot and powder charges should be seriously considered.

This load has been tested on industrial-grade equipment in a commercial laboratory.

The recipe includes the alternative powders Unique and Universal, either of which will produce an equally excellent load.

The only reason for the Promo version of this recipe is to have the ability to use a single, economical powder for both 12 and 20 gauge.

As stated, this is an unpublished wildcat recipe and you're on your own on this one. If you have even the slightest reservations about the Promo version -- THEN DON'T USE IT.

Just use either Unique or Universal.

IMPORTANT: While it isn't a bad idea to reweigh bushing drops from new lots of any powder, it's absolutely necessary when using Promo, which is known to vary from lot to lot. Promo has the same burn rate as Red Dot and can be substituted grain for grain, but the two powders meter differently through a bushing.

HULL: AA-HS or any Remington
SHOT WEIGHT: 11/16 (best) or 3/4 oz. (maximum) (Actual averages dropped by stock MEC charge bars: 11/16 oz. - 300 gr.; 3/4 oz. - 315 gr.)
SHOT SIZE: No. 8-1/2 or 9 (Larger shot will reduce pellet count and performance severely.)
POWDER: 12.4 gr. Alliant Promo -- ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM! (or 15.3 gr. Unique (No. 24 bushing) or Universal. You'd have to determine which MEC bushing drops that for Universal.)
MEC POWDER BUSHING FOR PROMO: No. 21
PRIMER: Fiocchi 616 (209), W209, STS209, Nobel Sport or PMC. (DO NOT USE the hotter Fed209A or Rio.)
WAD: Current "new" WAA20 (The older WAA20 wad and others are too short to crimp well and so far no clones are available for the newer WAA20.)

Average Velocity: 1209 fps.
Pressure: About 11,500 psi average for 3/4 oz. payload using Promo and W209 primer (Tested). Less than 11,000 psi using Unique.

NOTES: This load burns cleaner than any I've ever used in any shotgun, no matter what gauge/bore. It may or may not cycle semiautos.

WARNING: USING PROMO, DO NOT EXCEED THE LISTED POWDER CHARGE OR 3/4 OZ. OF SHOT IN THIS LOAD. Heavier payloads with this fast powder could raise pressures excessively. The 11/16 oz. payload is very effective, will produce lower pressure and is highly recommended. Use of 11.6 gr. of Promo from a MEC No. 20 bushing will also produce excellent results with lower pressure and negligibly lower velocity -- average 1156 fps. Just bear in mind that this is a wildcat recipe offering no latitude in components.

If you adhere to the recipe and observe those few caveats, you'll have a safe, clean-burning, ballistically efficient load that allows you to use the excellent, low-cost Promo for both 12 and 20 gauge.

If this recipe is to be shot in tubes, I highly recommend using the lower powder charge of 11.6 gr. from a MEC No. 20 bushing.

That, and 11/16 oz. of shot, is what I use.

By "tubes" I'm not talking about chokes or even necessarily the various gauge-reducing inserts, but rather full-length subgauge tubes such as Brileys or Kolars, the metal thickness of whose 20 gauge chambers is exceptionally thin.
END QUOTE
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Bob K


Thank you for that info, that is exactly the type of info that I have been searching for, my powder drops have been consistent with 11.6 and 11.7 and I am considering going even a touch lower but I am also going to track down some WAA20 wads in light of this article. My crimps were a little deep but not bad and I was thinking that a different wad would correct that, so I guess my suspicion is confirmed. Thanks again for the info. Joe
 

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I ask Alliant for a load for Green Dot. This was their responce.
Federal plastic hull-7/8 oz of shot-209a federal primer-waa20 wad-15 grains of green-dot 1200 psi.

Bob
 

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11/16 oz will definitely work for Skeet in the tube gun.

This is the safe way to use fast 12 ga powders in the 20 ga tubes.

I ran my first Skeet 100 with 20 ga 3/4 oz loads in Clyde Purbaugh's tubes, many years ago.

I happen to have a new 11/16 shot bar on the bench for the 20 and 5/8 for the 28.
 

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If you go back to some of the paper reloading guides from Alliant you will find 3/4 loads using Red Dot. 12.0 grains was pretty standard in the day.

Ajax
 

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Just because you find a load in an old manual does not mean it is a good load.

The 14.5 grain Green Dot, 7/8 oz, AA hull, AA wad load was a favorite for many years. I shot a bazillion, well a maybe a bazhousand, slightly softer shootin 14 grain grain loads and split the chambers on a set of Briley and on a set of Kolar skeet tubes along the way. Alliant dropped the AA/STS 20 gauge Green Dot loads at the behest of Briley and Kolar. Cliff Moeller at Briley told me once that over 90% of the cracked 20 gauge chambers they saw were from Green Dot reloads. Great load in a normal 20 gauge barrel, too much/too spikey pressure for the thin skeet tube chambers.

I would would not shoot any Red Dot/Promo/Green Dot loads in a modern skeet tube and certainly not in an old set of Purbaughs.

Michael
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Don,

It's not the saving pennies, it's the availability of powders. My area is just not a very good place for powder availability, or primers, or wads. I've been loading unique because I was lucky enough to find 3- 1 pound containers in the past several weeks which were $18.00 each but that has since dried up so, I have done a lot of research to load what I am loading with the promo. As soon as I can find something else I will start loading with that which actually has posted recipe's and save the promo for 12 gauge, till them I am hoping the nay-sayers are wrong.

regards, Joe
 

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Claybuster makes a 20ga 3/4 oz wad. Looks just like their WAA20 wad with a small filler in the shot cup to reduce volume. I have used a couple of bags and I like them. Haven't tried a Promo load yet as I still have plenty of 20 ga powder.


Jim
 

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Bob K,

Was that load from username "Case" and what was the date of the post?

If not, was it a re-post?

He knew his stuff.

The 20 Ga tube issue is not surviving one shot or even proof loads but staying together for many thousands of shells

Fatigue is the issue in a thinwall pressure vessel especially if there is a stress riser such as an ejector cut in the mono block. Target shells with their faster powders have the highest pressure spikes.

For fun follow up on the two K gun blow up threads.
 

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Have you called Alliant back and asked them for a pressure value for the load they recommended to you over the phone? If not, when you do, ask them why they haven't bothered to include it on their website for the rest of the world to see and use?

Call Briley and/or Kolar and ask them what they think of using Red Dot/Promo in THEIR 20ga tubes.

Both tubes are a LOT stronger than purbaugh tubes could ever dream of being (kolar uses titanium chambers, Briley uses stainless steel and titanium (depending on which flavor of tube you buy), whereas the Purbaughs were 1 solid piece of aluminum).

I'll quote myself in saying, "If you crack one of your purbaugh tubes, your only option is to buy a brand new tube from Briley or kolar, which will be $300-$400."
 

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Weren't the chambers on Purbaugh's tubes solid with no slots cut for the ejectors. Wouldn't that make them less susceptible to cracking?
 

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Discussion Starter #18
sam.browne,

I can't speak for all purbaugh tubes but the sets that I have are slotted for the ejectors, however in talking with multiple people I am told that the purbaugh tubes are less likely to crack than any other brand of tubes. Just what I have heard which seems to be a common theory.

Joe
 

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They weren't slotted for extractors (like kolar or Briley), but still had square cutouts for the gauge specific ejectors
 
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