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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I understand that the person in post 1 (squad leader) is supposed to make sure the shooters and trappers are ready before calling for a bird.

In the past I have also seen the squad leader as the "go to" when a shooter thinks they may have hit a bird that the scorer called a "lost". I have even seen people post in here that as the squad leader it is their responsibility to watch the birds and make sure they are called correctly or be able to answer that if asked by the scorer.

However, I cannot find anything in the ATA rules that talks about this and spells out about watching or being available to answer about a hit or loss. I did find details regarding making sure everyone is ready and calling for a bird to see, but nothing about the other. What am I missing or is it not a rule and just an accepted practice?

I also can't find any rules that say when a scorer calls a loss and someone on the squad says it was a hit that the scorer has to honor that. Same for if the squad leader says it - can't find anything about that. Is it not a rule and just commonly accepted that this is how it works?

Just curious because at a shoot this weekend - 1. A shooter hit a bird (chip) but it was called a loss. When the shoot mgmt got their they asked the squad leader and their reply was they were not watching. 2. A scorer refused to change a score when all 5 shooters said it was a hit, he called a loss. It was not until shoot mgmt came over that they over ruled the shooter.

Just want to be prepared in the event this comes up again. In a game where 1 or 2 birds could mean a win or loss I think it is important to know and understand the rules and what is expected of each shooter.
 

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I understand that the person in post 1 (squad leader) is supposed to make sure the shooters and trappers are ready before calling for a bird.

In the past I have also seen the squad leader as the "go to" when a shooter thinks they may have hit a bird that the scorer called a "lost". I have even seen people post in here that as the squad leader it is their responsibility to watch the birds and make sure they are called correctly or be able to answer that if asked by the scorer.

However, I cannot find anything in the ATA rules that talks about this and spells out about watching or being available to answer about a hit or loss. I did find details regarding making sure everyone is ready and calling for a bird to see, but nothing about the other. What am I missing or is it not a rule and just an accepted practice?

I also can't find any rules that say when a scorer calls a loss and someone on the squad says it was a hit that the scorer has to honor that. Same for if the squad leader says it - can't find anything about that. Is it not a rule and just commonly accepted that this is how it works?

Just curious because at a shoot this weekend - 1. A shooter hit a bird (chip) but it was called a loss. When the shoot mgmt got their they asked the squad leader and their reply was they were not watching. 2. A scorer refused to change a score when all 5 shooters said it was a hit, he called a loss. It was not until shoot mgmt came over that they over ruled the shooter.

Just want to be prepared in the event this comes up again. In a game where 1 or 2 birds could mean a win or loss I think it is important to know and understand the rules and what is expected of each shooter.
It is the scorekeepers responsibility to call targets. Sometimes the scorekeeper will defer to another squad member who calls it a dead bird but he/she doesn’t have to and ALWAYS has final say.

It is a game where win and lose are only one bird apart. So sometimes a squad will “claim” targets not broken.
 

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Usually....if the shooter and at least ONE other squad member says it was a hit ....the scorer will change
the loss to a hit. You say 4 out of the 5 squad members saw a visible chip and the scorer STILL refused
to change the score ???
 

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Below is straight from the rule book. The squad leader has what I would call "administrative" duties. They have no special say in scoring decisions.



For each squad, the shooter who has been assigned to start on post 1 is designated the “Squad Leader”. If post 1 is empty, the role of the Squad Leader passes to the shooter assigned to start on post 2, and so on. The Squad Leader has the following duties:

a. After all squad members are present at their assigned positions on the trap field, the Squad Leader should ascertain that all squad members are ready to begin the sub-event. After doing so, the Squad Leader only may ask that target(s) be thrown for the squad’s observation. For regular 16-yard Singles and Handicap sub-events, the Squad Leader may ask for one (1) target only. For regular Doubles sub-events, the Squad Leader may ask for one (1) pair of Doubles. For Shoot-offs in 16-yard Singles and Handicap events, the Squad Leader may ask for two (2) targets. For Shoot-offs in Doubles events, the Squad Leader may ask for two (2) pairs of Doubles.

b. If the target(s) thrown for observation are broken, irregular, or illegal, the Squad Leader may ask that another target (or pair of Doubles as applicable) be thrown. The squad has the right to see a legal target (or legal pair of Doubles as applicable) before commencing the subevent.

c. The Squad Leader should check and initial the score sheet at the completion of each sub-event. 14

d. The Squad Leader shall have the responsibility to carry the score sheet, on which more than one (1) sub-event is recorded, from trap to trap until completion of the event.
 

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Son: Browning Citori CXT Trap / 32" / Country Gentleman comb and adjustable butt plate added
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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Below is straight from the rule book. The squad leader has what I would call "administrative" duties. They have no special say in scoring decisions.



For each squad, the shooter who has been assigned to start on post 1 is designated the “Squad Leader”. If post 1 is empty, the role of the Squad Leader passes to the shooter assigned to start on post 2, and so on. The Squad Leader has the following duties:

a. After all squad members are present at their assigned positions on the trap field, the Squad Leader should ascertain that all squad members are ready to begin the sub-event. After doing so, the Squad Leader only may ask that target(s) be thrown for the squad’s observation. For regular 16-yard Singles and Handicap sub-events, the Squad Leader may ask for one (1) target only. For regular Doubles sub-events, the Squad Leader may ask for one (1) pair of Doubles. For Shoot-offs in 16-yard Singles and Handicap events, the Squad Leader may ask for two (2) targets. For Shoot-offs in Doubles events, the Squad Leader may ask for two (2) pairs of Doubles.

b. If the target(s) thrown for observation are broken, irregular, or illegal, the Squad Leader may ask that another target (or pair of Doubles as applicable) be thrown. The squad has the right to see a legal target (or legal pair of Doubles as applicable) before commencing the subevent.

c. The Squad Leader should check and initial the score sheet at the completion of each sub-event. 14

d. The Squad Leader shall have the responsibility to carry the score sheet, on which more than one (1) sub-event is recorded, from trap to trap until completion of the event.
That is all I could find too. So anything beyond that is not in the scope of their responsibilities.
 

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That is all I could find too. So anything beyond that is not in the scope of their responsibilities.
That’s correct. And you’re correct in implying that there are no rules stating the scorekeeper must change a loss/dead if squad members disagree. Scorekeepers always have the final judgement.

While I find it odd that they didn’t change the target in the experience you shared, they technically were within their rights not to. That said, it’s pretty rare that that happens.
 

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While I find it odd that they didn’t change the target in the experience you shared, they technically were within their rights not to. That said, it’s pretty rare that that happens.
If you have a squad of kids or anyone at all that are claiming or have claimed a target that was not hit earlier in the event that sours scorekeepers and even management on changing any more losses to hits. It happens. And spectators see it happen and report it to management and the scorekeeper between rounds. It happened at a SCTA shoot a couple of times and there was a young man, early 20’s that claimed targets at a number of venues. He doesn’t shoot ATA any more and the kids who were claiming and vouching for each other don’t either. Their coach saw them doing it and got out the “tough love” card. Broke them up. They graduated and quit shooting altogether.
 

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This why I like to see a score keeper and a referee at each trap. Won’t always find two on a trap, but some bigger shoots, sometimes you do.
 
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Just want to be prepared in the event this comes up again. In a game where 1 or 2 birds could mean a win or loss I think it is important to know and understand the rules and what is expected of each shooter.
This why I like to see a score keeper and a referee at each trap. Won’t always find two on a trap, but some bigger shoots, sometimes you do.
The rules, following the rules, the score, keeping the score, getting it righ; all are important! That is why we have rules -- etc etc.
This is not just important in the WIN- LOSS thingy .......... I am involved in selecting our state team. Or should I say, reporting the state team. Team selection is based on scores and percentages provided by ATA via PC download. Often times (more than one might think) the difference in making the team and not making the team may come down to less that 0.20% ...... So, miss seeing a chip here, miss seeing a chip there ----- It can make all the difference.
 

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I understand that the person in post 1 (squad leader) is supposed to make sure the shooters and trappers are ready before calling for a bird.

In the past I have also seen the squad leader as the "go to" when a shooter thinks they may have hit a bird that the scorer called a "lost". I have even seen people post in here that as the squad leader it is their responsibility to watch the birds and make sure they are called correctly or be able to answer that if asked by the scorer.

However, I cannot find anything in the ATA rules that talks about this and spells out about watching or being available to answer about a hit or loss. I did find details regarding making sure everyone is ready and calling for a bird to see, but nothing about the other. What am I missing or is it not a rule and just an accepted practice?

I also can't find any rules that say when a scorer calls a loss and someone on the squad says it was a hit that the scorer has to honor that. Same for if the squad leader says it - can't find anything about that. Is it not a rule and just commonly accepted that this is how it works?

Just curious because at a shoot this weekend - 1. A shooter hit a bird (chip) but it was called a loss. When the shoot mgmt got their they asked the squad leader and their reply was they were not watching. 2. A scorer refused to change a score when all 5 shooters said it was a hit, he called a loss. It was not until shoot mgmt came over that they over ruled the shooter.

Just want to be prepared in the event this comes up again. In a game where 1 or 2 birds could mean a win or loss I think it is important to know and understand the rules and what is expected of each shooter.
That is all I could find too. So anything beyond that is not in the scope of their responsibilities.
You've had the squad leaders responsibilities spelled out for you the same as what I presume you already discovered.

But, leadoff I'd given more recognition as a voice of authority/decision by alot of squad members. It's just an unwritten acknowledgement and there never was a rule/provision making post #1 having additional authority or decision making capabilities over any other squad member.

Calling a lost bird dead is another unwritten rule provided two or more members of the squad seen a visible chip. It will never be put into verbage do to those that would cheat because of it. But everywhere I've shot (pretty extensive) it's been a commonly accepted practice.

The squads I shoot with typically take more birds away (call dead birds lost) than we credit shooters with.

There are other unwritten rules but sure of the source before exercising the practice.
 

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c. The Squad Leader should check and initial the score sheet at the completion of each sub-event. 14
We don't have any similar rules down here, but here is my thought.

If the squad leader should check and initial the score sheet at the end of each round, what does s/he do if they don't agree with it? Surely the implication is that if they are required to certify the scores as correct, then they have at least some say in whether a particular target is scored as they saw it, rather than how the scorer saw it?

Otherwise, all they are signing is a document with which they disagree.
 

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The one time I had a SCTP team call chips when I knew the birds were lost, I called a cease-fire after the third time, and told the Coach to straighten them out or I would. Fixed the problem instantly.

I will not change the score if the shooter claims to have broken a target I call lost. If another team member chines in, I change the score. When shooting, I do not question the scorer. Ever.

This has worked well for over 50 years in every discipline. Intl', Skeet and Sporting do not take comments from the peanut gallery.
 

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We don't have any similar rules down here, but here is my thought.

If the squad leader should check and initial the score sheet at the end of each round, what does s/he do if they don't agree with it? Surely the implication is that if they are required to certify the scores as correct, then they have at least some say in whether a particular target is scored as they saw it, rather than how the scorer saw it?

Otherwise, all they are signing is a document with which they disagree.
They only certify the math. Or that the targets are property marked. Not whether a specific target is dead or lost. That has to be argued before moving from your/their post.
 
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If you have a squad of kids or anyone at all that are claiming or have claimed a target that was not hit earlier in the event that sours scorekeepers and even management on changing any more losses to hits. It happens. And spectators see it happen and report it to management and the scorekeeper between rounds. It happened at a SCTA shoot a couple of times and there was a young man, early 20’s that claimed targets at a number of venues. He doesn’t shoot ATA any more and the kids who were claiming and vouching for each other don’t either. Their coach saw them doing it and got out the “tough love” card. Broke them up. They graduated and quit shooting altogether.
While I haven’t knowingly seen this happen, I’ve heard plenty of similar stories which is wildly disappointing. It cheapens it for the honest ones asking for targets they actually earned.

I’m glad to hear at least one coach did their part to end the poor behavior. Usually I’d assume the kids learn it from a coach but it’s good to know good ones are teaching the kids properly.
 

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They only certify the math. Or that the targets are property marked. Not whether a specific target is dead or lost. That has to be argued before moving from your/their post.
of course I defer to you Flash as I've never shot an ATA event (although a club down here is running them...pity it's 1100 miles away...).

The practice at ISSF competitions is that each shooter must sign the score sheet at the end of each 25. That also happened at the DTL Worlds and the Nationals in 2018 down here.
 

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They only certify the math. Or that the targets are property marked. Not whether a specific target is dead or lost. That has to be argued before moving from your/their post.
I disagree. The squad leaders signature only indicates that the scorer has finished with the sheet, and that every squad member has had the opportunity to review their score before the squad leader takes possession of the scoresheet for transportation to the next subevent, or leaves the scoresheet for shoot management. The squad leader is not required to add up any scores and verify accuracy, or critique the scorers notations. Any squad member may look at a line and ask the scorer for clarification before the scoresheet is transported, but it is not the squad leaders responsibility to review anything on the score sheet.

I get a kick when someone on the squad goes up to the squad leader to complain about the scorer in the middle of a subevent. What does he think I am going to do? Uh- mr scorer, that guy over there says you suck? Sorry, if you don't like how things are done, speak up for yourself, and ask for shoot management if necessary.

The nomenclature should be changed from "Squad Leader" to "Scoresheet caddy." After all, that is really the only thing he "SHALL" do. Everything else was something that the so called squad leader "may" or "should" do.
 

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of course I defer to you Flash as I've never shot an ATA event (although a club down here is running them...pity it's 1100 miles away...).

The practice at ISSF competitions is that each shooter must sign the score sheet at the end of each 25. That also happened at the DTL Worlds and the Nationals in 2018 down here.
Someone up thread posted the text of the squad leader responsibilities rule book entry. Anything else is local custom or the club itself putting up additional items. The club sometimes puts squad runners on who take the scoresheet from the last trap as soon as the squad leader initials it and runs it to the official score office/desk where all scores are published. The duties are quite simple but some folks want to complicate things.
 

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Intl', Skeet and Sporting do not take comments from the peanut gallery.
In fairness, international trap (ISSF) shoots have side judges with flags who must agree with the referee's call, otherwise they have a quick discussion, and the referee may, if convinced, change the call.

At World Cups and above there's even a video review system.
 
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