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Copper, When a shell is fired the pressure is 360 degrees. Think of a shell fired as a tennis ball with pressure exerted all the way around from the inside pushing out.
On the K80 issue
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Toolmaker,
Of course you are correct abou pressure being exerted in all direction. In fact, the Gordon System exploits this FACT by spring loading the base wad to reduce recoil. This is why I cannot believe that a base wad can migrate up the barrel and cause an obstruction. Yet there are people who claim to have seen a base wad in the barrel or stuck in the choke. Since the powder in ON TOP of the base wad, and the base wad in being pushed rearward against the breach (or bolt) face by the pressure, what would propel the wad down the barrel?
Birdogs
Of course you are correct abou pressure being exerted in all direction. In fact, the Gordon System exploits this FACT by spring loading the base wad to reduce recoil. This is why I cannot believe that a base wad can migrate up the barrel and cause an obstruction. Yet there are people who claim to have seen a base wad in the barrel or stuck in the choke. Since the powder in ON TOP of the base wad, and the base wad in being pushed rearward against the breach (or bolt) face by the pressure, what would propel the wad down the barrel?
Birdogs
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I think the theory is with certain types loaders the machine does not seat the base wad and powder can migrate under the base wad. I don't really know if that would cause it to dislodge, but I know for a fact that I have on more than one occasion shot the complete case down and out the barrel extracting only the brass case head. All of these were of the separate base wad design. I no longer load these types of cases much and only with an inspection.
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I don't think the issue is related to just the K 80 & reloading. Lets face it, most high end guns K-80's, Kolars, Seitz's, etc. are designed to be work horses. But metal is still metal and all metal has a life expectancy. If you buy a used gun, no matter what the brand-you should have a pretty good estimate of the # of rounds that possibly could have gone thru the gun. If a gun is 20 years old, it could easily have had 250k rounds thru it. Maybe think about getting a new barrel, it maybe over due.
Lou
Lou
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REPRINT from another thread. This happened with a new Federal shell.I personally Had the greatest of luck in having the basewad from a federal shell out of a four pack from walmart wedge in my 1100 skeet barrel. The reason I say good luck is that had been shooting and returned home. The next day I was going to a sporting shoot and changed barrels, LUCKY for ME! The following week I went to clean the gun and change back the barrel and went to clean the Skeet barrel and the brush would not go through. What the Hzll, I thought an looked through and there was this 1/4 inch hole. I could not push it out with the rod so I got a piece of dowel and a hammer to drive the snot out of it. A basewad from the LAST shell I had shot fell out. That was luck. I have never reloaded any federal shell except papers.This was new ammo. This is my own personal story and swear to it. Jeff
Any time you release large amounts of energy very quickly strange things can happen. Just because the pressure is on the basewad pushing it rearward at ignition is no proof that said pressure remains in that direction throughout the entire firing and post firing cycle, especially if there is anything unusual taking place in the mechanics of the hull/basewad/primer/powder relationship.
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A dissapropriate amount of K-guns blowing up and no pictures, Sure Yogi! I think the Spahgetti gun guys are having fun.LOL and Merry Christmas. Jeff
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I've yet to see pics of a "blown up K-80". Think about it. What shell has been reloaded the most over the years? AA, then probably STS. There are alot of K-80's out there too, and there are probably some "high dollar gun Bashers" out there as well. Need pics! However, I did once have a Fed Smoothie seperate in my K-80. It was a reload, and the top half of the hull was wedged in the barrel about 8" ahead of the forcing cone. I had to cut a dowel rod down to the bore diameter to beat it out. That baby was stuck bigtime. When I opened the gun, I saw the brass and 1/2 the hull was ejected. I don't shoot Fed's anymore. It was a book 1250fps load with International clays. The hull had been fired between 5-6 times.
1. dickgtax said "Whatever the cause, the fact remains that over the years there has been a disproportionate number of Krieghoffs involved in gun blow-ups. I have no idea why." There is no proof at all for this statement- none- Anyone that took math or science in HS would realize that without data there can be no proof and without data you cant compare one firearm to another
2. Base wads-- a possibility is the fact that many forces are introduced during firing--- if the base wad is loose and pushed back- it then because of equal and opposite reactions then jump forward- once that pressure is relieved
regards from Iowa
Gene
2. Base wads-- a possibility is the fact that many forces are introduced during firing--- if the base wad is loose and pushed back- it then because of equal and opposite reactions then jump forward- once that pressure is relieved
regards from Iowa
Gene
Gene,
Point 2 needs more explaination if you wish to postulate it as fact or a possibilty. The question remains "what is the force that propels the base wad down the barrel in the exact oppposite direction from the force exerted by the firing of the shell?" Your "equal and opposite reaction" statement says nothing! The pressure exerted rearward against the base wad is transferred to the breach or bolt face which, being fixed and immoveable, prevents the shell from moving rearward. The pressure then vents in the direction it CAN, moving the wad and shot down the barrel.
Again, What moves the base wad down the barrel?
Point 2 needs more explaination if you wish to postulate it as fact or a possibilty. The question remains "what is the force that propels the base wad down the barrel in the exact oppposite direction from the force exerted by the firing of the shell?" Your "equal and opposite reaction" statement says nothing! The pressure exerted rearward against the base wad is transferred to the breach or bolt face which, being fixed and immoveable, prevents the shell from moving rearward. The pressure then vents in the direction it CAN, moving the wad and shot down the barrel.
Again, What moves the base wad down the barrel?
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Please-let's not go into denial. Basewads have always migrated down barrels. Those of us who are familiar with shooting Winchester X-Pert paper shells can verify that scenario. They were responsible for more than a few barrel bulges!!
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Sure K guns are good, but the manufacturer knocks out a lot of them every year. As any mass produced item, the blame lays with the person doing the final inspection. A Chevy & Caddy both have the same life expectancy, engine wise. A K gun being designed for competitive sports should have a much longer life than any field gun. However, being a mass produced item, there are slip ups, who knows maybe the bad guns were made after Mon. night football or the equivalent. If you get a Bowen, Seitz, & an Infinity. You're getting a truly custom gun with a person who can stand behind their product.
Lou
Lou
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JerryP asked, "Again, What moves the base wad down the barrel?" Good question. I've asked it myself. The most plausible explanation I've read was something like this:
The base wad moves up in the hull, leaving a gap under it. When loaded on some machines, powder drops thru the primer hole and fills the gap. Upon ignition the powder under the basewad fires it down the barrel. That sounds possible. Is it? Dunno.
It would seem there would have be enough powder under the basewad to counter-act the pressure of the powder in front of the wad. But not too much powder, or the basewad would be fired from the barrel.
And....I hear of all these basewads being found, but never hear of a hull discovered without its basewad.
The base wad moves up in the hull, leaving a gap under it. When loaded on some machines, powder drops thru the primer hole and fills the gap. Upon ignition the powder under the basewad fires it down the barrel. That sounds possible. Is it? Dunno.
It would seem there would have be enough powder under the basewad to counter-act the pressure of the powder in front of the wad. But not too much powder, or the basewad would be fired from the barrel.
And....I hear of all these basewads being found, but never hear of a hull discovered without its basewad.
compression and rebound- just restated from the way I put it but as a couple of others have said
loose basewad compresses- already detached-
once the shot leave the barrel- the pressure is relieved on the base wad and it rebounds
bounce a ball and watch this happen
Gene
loose basewad compresses- already detached-
once the shot leave the barrel- the pressure is relieved on the base wad and it rebounds
bounce a ball and watch this happen
Gene
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GN7777777, Give us your scientific theory on the K80 blowup that happened 20 miles away at another gun club from the one that just let go. This happened about 5 months ago and the owner was shooting Remington STS's
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