[flashmax]

Shotshell Primer Substitutions Effecting Patterns by: Tom Armbrust

 

[Rhodesengr]

I am not going to dispute this because data is data. There is similar data in Lyman V5 about primers. But, I recently had some questions about the load data in the Western Powder pdf download. They had some loads listed with FED primers but if anything the FED loads had more powder than Cheddite or other primers. It wasn't clear if FED meant the older Fed 209 or the newer Fed209A. So I called them about three weeks ago. I called the Western Powder main number, and they transferred me to a guy that answered the phone "Hodgden". Sounded like he was out in the shop because i could hear machine noise in the background. I asked about the apparent discrepancy in the load listing and his rely was "it doesn't matter, the primers are all standardized now. They all have the same brisance" and we ended the call.

It's hard to know what is right and what is wrong but this article is from 2007. Lyman V5 came out in 2008. Maybe 13 years ago the different primers had significant differences and now they don't. I guess unless someone does some similar testing with the various brands from recent lots, we won't know. But I can tell you this: last month I had a shipment of new, primed Cheddite hulls from BPI. I ran through them and reloaded them with Federal primers because I didn't have any Cheddites. 22 grains of WST in both versions. My gun didn't explode and I really couldn't tell any difference. Not saying there wasn't a difference but nothing obvious.

Me personally, I am more or less discounting the primer pressure difference and focusing more on fit. Primers that drop out of a load don't do anybody any good.

 

[flashmax]

I am not going to dispute this because data is data.

But you disregard it from your own ignorance. There is a difference between Fed209 and Fed209A. At least 1/2 grain of powder difference. There is so much you DON’T know and that makes you dangerous. Your entire post screams out how dangerous you are.

 

[Rick Barker]

There is a statement found in every published manual, every website of the powder manufacturers that publish reloading data.

”Do not substitute components.“

 

[Rhodesengr]

isn't it possible that loads published 13 years ago are no longer valid because the components have changed? All I am saying is it would be nice if there was new data with present day components.

 

[Rick Barker]

Anything is possible. Things change all the time, but what if some primers are more powerful than they were 13 years ago? I try to update manuals every year or visit websites a couple times a year for changes. How do you know the guy who answered the phone wasn’t the janitor?

 

[Rhodesengr]

Anything is possible. Things change all the time, but what if some primers are more powerful than they were 13 years ago?

That is not reflected in the most recent Wester Powder download. Or at least the common belief that Fed209A requires less powder is not reflected in their data. You all can look for yourself. They show more powder for the same wad/hull/velocity for Fed primers than for Cheddite.

 

[flashmax]

Anything is possible. Things change all the time, but what if some primers are more powerful than they were 13 years ago? I try to update manuals every year or visit websites a couple times a year for changes. How do you know the guy who answered the phone wasn’t the janitor?

Crikey Mikey. How hard would it be for these new guys to look through the reloading data available online and find those loads using the different primers that use identical other components but require less or more powder? Other than a gruff voice on the phone that is.

 

[flashmax]

That is not reflected in the most recent Wester Powder download. Or at least the common belief that Fed209A requires less powder is not reflected in their data. You all can look for yourself. They show more powder for the same wad/hull/velocity for Fed primers than for Cheddite.

There are TWO Fed primers. Fed 209. And Fed 209A.

Pay attention.

 

[Nebs]

There you go again, trying to generalize about primers. Generally, the current Fed primers perform hotter that the other primers. Except when used with ball powders where the Fed will perform cooler. Winchester powders generally are ball powders made at the General Dynamic plant in St.Marks, FL. This situation is the exception that validates the general rule.

 

[Rhodesengr]

There are TWO Fed primers. Fed 209. And Fed 209A.

Pay attention.

I understand that. The original point of my call was to clarify which primer they meant in the data because it only said Fed. I understand that the 209's have not been made since 1994. But here is the data. They show very little difference in grains for all the different primers. And most peopl in these forums will say that Fed 209A needs less powder than Cheddite. That opinion is NOT reflected in this set of loads.

 

[Rhodesengr]

according to this, recent data Cheddite primers are the hottest and require the least powder for every wad at 1150fps. That is the opposite of what is shown in the Armbrust article. The spread between the different primers for a particular velocity is only a few tenths of a grain. How many here think the accuracy or consistency of their drops is accurate to .1 grain?

 

[Rhodesengr]

here is some data I just now took from the Hodgden website for WSH ,1145 fps, Rem hull with Fig 8 wad (which is what I am mostly loading)
Ched 209 17.8gr
Fed 209A 17.6gr
Rem 209P 18.4gr
Win 209 18.2gr

With WSH, it does show Fed's as the hottest, but only by .2gr over Ched. I doubt I can hit either weight exactly with a particular bushing. So as mentioned above, it depends on both the primer and the powder and you can't generalize about either.

 

[flashmax]

here is some data I just now took from the Hodgden website for WSH ,1145 fps, Rem hull with Fig 8 wad (which is what I am mostly loading)
Ched 209 17.8gr
Fed 209A 17.6gr
Rem 209P 18.4gr
Win 209 18.2gr

With WSH, it does show Fed's as the hottest, but only by .2gr over Ched. I doubt I can hit either weight exactly with a particular bushing. So as mentioned above, it depends on both the primer and the powder and you can't generalize about either.

Look at PRESSURE. Not velocity. There is a lot to know. And you’re right, you CAN’T generalize. About anything.

 

[Nebs]

Ramshot Competition is a ball powder.

And on the CCI primer issue and Competition and Nitro 100, I had the following colloquy with Hodgdon:

Q: Your data for Ramshot Competition, Nitro 100, include loads using CCI primers. There are 2 types of CCI primers, the CCI209 and the CCI209M. Which of these two primers is the one your data refer to?

A:
The standard CCI 209 shot-shell primer was used.

Don W.
CST
Hodgdon Powder Company

 

[billyboy07208]

You can extrapolate all you want 10 percent below a minimum powder charge.
Just remember to toss out those prematurely fried hulls sooner than later.

 

[Chuckie]

Back in the mid 70's I recall Alcan primers were available for reloading. I didn't get involved in the reloading discussions, however they were always a point of speculation. I recall picking up empty hulls with extremely flaten primers, a guage of "to hot a load they would say". There weren't any cross reference articles, internet, or publication other than the Lyman's Reloading hand book. I never heard of a shotgun being blown apart, but there were some slightly bulged barrels where the chokes were shot out, and a new barrel was needed to continue shooting trap effective ly!

All we knew back then was Red Dot powder, Fed 209 primer, 1 1/8 oz. Chilled Shot, Solid Mec Reloading Charge Bar, a Federal wad in a Federal paper hull, and WWAA wad in a Win plastic hull (resulted to a perfectly spent primer).

 

[Curly N]

Back in the mid 70's I recall Alcan primers were available for reloading. I didn't get involved in the reloading discussions, however they were always a point of speculation. I recall picking up empty hulls with extremely flaten primers, a guage of "to hot a load they would say". There weren't any cross reference articles, internet, or publication other than the Lyman's Reloading hand book. I never heard of a shotgun being blown apart, but there were some slightly bulged barrels where the chokes were shot out, and a new barrel was needed to continue shooting trap effective ly!

All we knew back then was Red Dot powder, Fed 209 primer, 1 1/8 oz. Chilled Shot, Solid Mec Reloading Charge Bar, a Federal wad in a Federal paper hull, and WWAA wad in a Win plastic hull (resulted to a perfectly spent primer).

Trying to determine pressure levels in a shotgun by primer reading is a fool's errand.