[Shipbuilder]

I am looking at engraved Model 12s. There are 2 for sale on Gun Broker:
GB # 392686924- ser # 1968839
GB# 392278845- ser # 19419xx

The Cody Museum tells me that their records do not indicate if a Model 12 left Winchester engraved or not.
The 2 books I have, Riffle and Madis show engraving close to what is on these two guns, but not exact.
What do you guys think?

Jim

 

[bigbore613]

If the serial number matches a number in the Riffle book or have Pauline Murrell authenticate it is the only way I know.Jeff

 

[butch32]

+2. Pauline should know.

 

[Holeinmypattern]

I don't think the first gun is factory and I'm 100% sure the 2nd one is NOT. I handled the 2nd one at the Tulsa gun show 2years ago and its not that nice in person. I agree that pauline is the one to ask.

John

 

[claybrdr]

No to both

 

[flabigpapa]

A Big NO...for Both..

 

[bigbore613]

I don't consider myself a Winchester engraving expert ,but both of those are aftermarket After looking at them. Jeff

 

[GR Eubanks]

Ditto what bigbore said...

Roger

 

[Simon]

shipbuilder for what it is worth i personaly do not think these were done at the factory. aftermarket is what im leaning to. regards howard

 

[bigbore613]

I have seen Grade 2's with gold but no grade ones. Jeff

 

[27ydgames]

I've had numerous factory engraved M-12's and neither of those are factory. I have one left, a initialed NK. Nick Kusmit gun, #5 and none off the lines look the same. It is a 2 pin skeet if anyone is interested in it. I will follow with some pictures.
Dan

 

[27ydgames]

Not the best pictures, but you can see

 

[Holeinmypattern]

Here is a Kusmit #5 Trap

 

[GR Eubanks]

Hey holypattern, you are an awesome photographer. What a nice model 12.........

Roger

 

[Holeinmypattern]

Roger,

I would like to take credit for the pics but I had my collection of engraved guns professionally photographed for my records and also to give Pauline some pics for a book that she may start.

 

[Shipbuilder]

Dan
Those are beautiful, thanks for the pictures. I am looking for a trap gun with pattern 1 or 2 engraving.

Jim

 

[eightbore]

27ydgames, I'm not too sure about your #5 gun. At the very least, the breech block is not a Winchester jeweling job. The gun looks too nice to be on its second breech block.

 

[27ydgames]

eightbore,I had it redone. I know, it looks too good. My guy said he wouldn't put his mark on a sub par job, which in reality, the originals look just like a Simmons job and were done in haste. I've seen some that weren't even straight.
Mine does have Nicks initials in the engraving, so at least I know Joe Schmo didn't do it. A guy who did woodwork for me is a personal friend with Nick and he told me it was in his book. You think the guy who wrote a M-12 book might be self serving with a ledger. One might add a few serial numbers for guns that are in ones possessions to make them worth more. Not saying, but. Pictures vs in hand is different.

 

[Doug Brown]

I had a Grade 5 M-12. When I tried to sell it most people could see it was a fake from two aisles away. It looked like a stick man with some stick dogs. The only good thing was I sold it back to the guy who had it faked up.

 

[JT 27]

First Grade 5 does not have engraving on the bbl. extension. This would be suspect as all 3 I bought new have that. A lot of Winchester Pigeon records were lost in a fire. The records from those years seemed to spawn a lot of glut of engraved pigeons that had records been in tact could be proved non-factory. I once saw a pigeon on the barrel extension whose feet were toward the muzzle, it appeared to have been done with a screw driver and ball peen hammer.