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The time has come where we can finally address the issues related to the Las Vegas 1000. Dave Siegler and I are no longer delegates, which was by our own choosing. From the onset Dave and I cautioned the ATA EC letting them know they had a responsibility to the membership as well as Dave and myself to make this investigation available to the shooting membership in order to show the transparency thus keeping the information out there accurate. Because the ATA EC has chosen to stay silent we are now in a position to clarify the events and set the record straight.

Thanks to TS.com you have all had the opportunity to read the single sided commentary provided by Jim and Gary regarding their version of the issues that occurred at their 2011 and 2012 Las Vegas 1000 shoots. As is so often the case, they have conveniently chosen to leave out certain details, which would discredit their account of events that took place. The two posted the following, just to name a few; they were railroaded, that Dave and I had a vendetta and were out to get them, the decisions made at their shoot were unanimous, they did nothing wrong, they would accept whatever punishment the ATA imposed, no matter the out come they would not sue, they wanted the lawsuit to be public but the ATA did not, along with many more. With all of the miss information the two of them have put out there I am sure I have missed some, but this is enough for the shooting membership to get the general idea of the true facts surrounding the complaint.

As Paul Harvey would say, “Now for the rest of the story”.

From the start Jim and Gary have provided, (posted), a lot of misinformation to the shooting community related to their first LV 1000 shoot that occurred in May of 2011. It started when they purposely over stated the number of shooters signed up to attend the shoot. This is one of the issues that was hashed out on TS.com by “WPT” and several other shooters. The shooting community apparently chose to forgive and forgot this deception.

There were several issues that occurred at the first Las Vegas1000 shoot.

Dave Siegler was appointed as the Nevada Delegate in mid June of 2011. Contrary to what Jim and Gary posted Dave was not the Delegate when the first Las Vegas 1000 occurred. They intentionally misled everyone in their posts stating he was. When Dave took over as the state delegate he was told that Jim and Gary had not paid the ATA and State fees collected at the LV1000. Several shooters, who were upset about what had occurred at the shoot, also contacted Dave. Separately the delayed payment of fees and voiced complaints about the shoot did not appear to be a concern, but together it did cause Dave to be concerned. Under the rules of the ATA, because of the time that had elapsed between the shoot and Dave taking office, no complaint or investigation could occur.

Dave immediately started working on collecting the fees that were owed to the State and ATA. In one of the conversations he had with Gary and Jim, they wanted to know who he was and why he was getting involved in the matter. Dave told them that he was the new Nevada delegate and it was his responsibility to deal with the non-payment. Dave also had information that Clark County had not been paid. All fees were eventually paid to the ATA and State, but not in a timely manner.

In another one of their posts concerning the first LV1000 they posted a questionable amount, which they stated they gave to the youth program as a result of the monies they received on casino night. In several different posts they stated that they gave the youth program over a thousand dollars. What Jim and Gary have stated here on TS.com and what the youth group states they received are two very different amounts. This may be why the youth program would not support 2012 LV1000 shoot let alone allow them to use their Clark County number for the shoot?

This is information Jim and Gary were aware of but chose to misrepresent to the shooters.

Now we get to the second LV1000 that occurred mid May 2012. Jim and Gary started off their posts criticizing both Dave and myself for not attending their shoot. They posted their displeasure with us for choosing to attend the Golden West Grand, in Reno, instead of their LV1000. Neither Dave nor I have to justify why we attend the shoots we attend. If Jim or Gary had bothered to check they would have found that in years past both Dave and I have each attended the Golden West Grand. We both also recall the fiasco that occurred when Jim and Gary set the original LV1000 on the same date.

Now I will address the complaint that was filed concerning the 2012, LV1000. On previous TS.com post Jim and Gary provided a link that would allow shooters to view the complaint and their initial response. Jim and Gary have insinuated on one of their posts that I am the one who, most likely, wrote the complaint for Dave. Jim and Gary, check your sources, I did not. When issues started to surface concerning the 2012 LV1000, and remembering the issues and concerns of the previous years shoot; the responsible thing for the state delegate to do was to initiate an investigation into the shoot. It is the responsibility of every state delegate to protect the shooters of their state.

Once the complaint was filed and reviewed by the ATA EC they made the decision to assign the complaint to me. Taking into consideration that both Jim and Gary live in the State of California and all records and correspondence would be happening in California the EC did the right thing by assigning the investigation to me. If any of you are familiar with the complaint process you know that being a member of the ATA you are obligated to provide certain information to the ATA when requested during the complaint process.

What Jim and Gary have not posted is that when I received the complaint and reviewed the listed allegations I requested Jim and Gary provide me a copy of several shoot documents along with the cashiering sheets. Before any complete investigation could be done into the alleged allegations certain documentation was needed. Once the request was made the clock started ticking. On first contact and request Gary appeared to be willing to adhere to the rules of the ATA. Gary left me a voicemail in early June stating he would provide the requested information. I returned Gary’s call and left him a voicemail telling him, “So you don’t incur any cost please bring the requested information to the California State Shoot.” The next day I received an email from Jim Tyner with his written response. For the two-month ordeal keep in mind that I was in contact with specific members of the ATA EC.

For reasons still unknown to me Jim and Gary chose not to attend the 2012 California State Shoot. And yes it is true Dave did attend the California State Shoot and because there was an open spot we shot on the same squad. Over the years Dave and I have shot at many of the same venues and I’m sure we have shot on the same squad a time or two. I’m not really sure what that has to do with anything other than smoke and mirrors or something else to confuse the real issue, but Jim felt the need to make an issue about it in one of his posts. So the accusation that a conspiracy was occurring is one more false accusation.

When I returned home from the state shoot I checked the mail and was disappointed to find the requested documentation was not there. I sent a second request for the documentation to both Jim and Gary on July 4th. Giving both Jim and Gary the benefit of the doubt I made an additional request for the needed documentation, extending the first fourteen-day deadline by another fourteen days. I gave them this additional opportunity to supply the requested information in the hopes the complaint could be resolved. That is not something the EC or I had to do, but I thought it was the right thing. I later discovered it was a waste of time but it did provide additional information that may not have been uncovered.

Over the next couple of days, I received several emails from Jim asking me why I was requesting the shoot records and what authority I had to do so. I cited the ATA rules that provide the reasonable inspection of shoot records (audit) and told him to keep things simple. Eventually on July 6th, through several more emails, Jim said, “We will get to it”. Attached to one on Jim’s e-mails I did receive a copy of an option payout sheet, but none of the other documents requested. It was at this point of the process that Jim and Gary started saying that they knew the fix was in, and they were being railroaded. Nothing could be further from the truth. I was trying to conduct an investigation and to that point I was not even able to address the alleged allegations because of their lack of cooperation.

It was at that point I had an in person conversation with Jeff Wagner, the President of the ATA. I informed Mr. Wagner of my attempts to obtain the shoot information from both Jim and Gary and the fourteen-day extension I had given them both in the hopes of quick resolution.

I should have known that my act of good will in giving Jim and Gary the benefit of the doubt regarding their stalling efforts in providing me with the requested documentation would be used against me. On July 16th the ATA Office received a letter from Jim and Gary requesting that the complaint be dismissed. Jim and Gary posted their dismissal request again containing only what they wanted the shooters to know on TS.com.

What Jim and Gary did not tell the ATA in their letter for dismissal is that both of them agreed at separate times during the investigation to supply the requested shoot records. They were both provided a second opportunity to supply the records so the issues could be resolved, and in an email dated July 6th Jim Tyner said, “We will get to it”. So this is where the real games began and they made it very clear that their “Word” means absolutely nothing. Both Jim and Gary chose to misrepresent and mislead the ATA, EC in the details and events that occurred during the investigation.

After the ATA, EC received Jim and Gary’s dismissal request I provided the EC with a copy of my investigation timeline. Jim and Gary attempted to slip by on a technicality. A technicality of their own making, even though they essentially waived any objectionable rights by saying, “We will get to it”. This is something I am sure was just an oversight on their part when they posted their side of the story for all their supporters on TS.com. Also to not include pertinent information to Allan Radway, Western Zone VP, during their phone conversation was a calculated gamble by the two of them.

After the ATA, EC and in house legal counsel reviewed the documentation provided outlining the repeated attempts made to obtain shoot records and their failure to comply with the requests, a letter was sent to Jim and Gary requesting that they comply with the investigation and supply all requested documents.

Jim and Gary responded to the ATA’s letter on July 22 stating: 1) “we are unable to understand your interpretation of the time requirements that are clearly set forth in the Rules. However, we respect your absolute authority in the matter and accept your decision. We have found it to be most instructive”, 2) “As to the statement, “There are many factors that you are not aware of at this time.”, we sincerely doubt that there are”, 3) “You can also be assured that whatever your decision on the complaint, we will accept your judgment with grace and without rancor”, 4) “you can rest assured that we will never again request to produce an ATA registered shoot in any venue or format.” Their response can also be found in one of their post on TS.com.

During the course of an investigation it always amazes me the lengths people will go to find a possible loophole to wiggle through. Keeping this in mind I made sure I closed all the doors in several different ways. At no time did Jim or Gary supply the requested documentation/required per the ATA rules. This was a simple matter. The two of them chose to play games causing a lot of extra work for everyone involved. This appears to be the same theme/road they chose to take at the last private gun club where they were board members. There are many post on TS.com that address those details.

One of the things I found when looking into the allegations made is that it was not as Jim and Gary portrayed, “It was a unanimous decision,” that everyone agreed to use ATA/State escrowed daily fees for lunch. In fact there were several shooters who stated they were never asked. Add to that, that when I arrived at the Grand American several shooters who had attended the LV1000 were upset about several things that had occurred at the shoot and I had a chance to talk to them. Because of Jim and Gary’s lack of cooperation in supplying shoot documentation there was really no other investigating that could be done. The case was submitted to the ATA, EC with my recommendation.

Jim and Gary’s insinuations that, “we drank beer over dinner and discussed the events and celebrated,” is another one of their attempts to throw mud at the wall and see what sticks. Also chiming in to give her two cents was Eileen Williamson. Eileen posted on TS.com that I requested credit card information on the shooters that attended the shoot. Funny, but I don’t remember making any such request, and especially not through Eileen, so I can only assume that misinformation again had to come from Jim and, or Gary. Doing what I do for a living, with over twenty thousand hours of investigative experience, I know what can and should be asked for during and investigation and what would be ridiculous. This falls into the ridiculous category and anyone who says I requested credit card information is outright lying. And to close another door before Jim and Gary try to walk through it I don’t know of any cashiering reports that show shooter credit card information, and if for some wild chance Jim and Gary did choose to place shooter credit card information on their cashier reports it would have been a simple thing to redact it.

While at the Grand, one of the shoot participants told me he requested a receipt for the money he paid for the shoot. The participant had to make several requests over several days in order to obtain a receipt for his tax records. The shooter was eventually given a receipt, which he showed me. I was dumb founded, the receipt did not contain the name, “Las Vegas 1000”. In fact Las Vegas 1000 was nowhere on the receipt. The name on the receipt was “Santa Clarita Shotgun Sports”. I asked the shooter if he had ever shot in Santa Clarita and he said no. The receipt also had the “CGSTA”, which is California’s State Association as the state organization involved. The CGSTA had nothing to do with the LV1000, not to mention the shoot was held in the State of Nevada.

To clarify: the shooter was in Las Vegas, shooting at the Clark County Shooting Complex, the shoot was granted by the Nevada State Association, but the shooter was given a receipt from Santa Clarita Shotgun Sports with the CGSTA’s name on it. Santa Clarita Shotgun Sports was and I believe still is affiliated with North Hollywood Sportsman’s Club, which is located in Southern California. That is the same club the two are no longer members of.

All of the fancy letterhead, websites, and logos, the LV1000 LLC, (an incorporated entity of Nevada), and the receipt they finally provided did not have LV1000 on it. I am sure that this will be chalked up as another over site, did not occur, was planted, or made-up by Dave or myself. (Wow)

After everything I am still asking myself questions like, for the first LV1000 you had a competent cashier, why not for the second shoot? The rules state something about competent cashiering. Did you supply any other receipts to any other shooters? Every shoot I have attended it is standard practice and a common occurrence to be given a receipt that correctly reflects the shoot that I am attending. Even if I receive a generic receipt I have never been given one that implicates another club or state association. What happens when the IRS audits someone and when verifying the receipts provided it is found that such a receipt is representing the claimed deduction? I for one would not like to find out.

After being notified of their suspensions Jim and Gary made the decision to use the Internet, TS.com, LV1000 website, and emails to intentionally misrepresent the facts and launched a character assassination against Dave and I. Unfortunately some of their strong supporters and ATA bashers jumped on the train. The ATA, EC did not help matters by the way they addressed the complaint in the ATA minutes.

After being notified of their suspension Jim and Gary contacted me and now wanted to sit down and talk about the complaint. If you recall Jim, Gary and Terry Bilbey had set down with Gary’s good friend who was a California lawyer. They made it very clear their lawyer was very interested/concerned in what I did for a living. This was another scare/bullying tactic they were trying to hang a hat on. At this point the talking was over, which I explained to them. My involvement in the filed complaint was over, I told both Jim and Gary that any future correspondence regarding the complaint needed to be addressed directly with the ATA. I also encouraged the two to take advantage of their right to file an appeal, and to supply all requested information to the ATA. In late 2012, Jim and Gary finally supplied the requested cashier reports to the ATA. I was asked by the ATA to maintain my file for the appeal that Jim and Gary had submitted.

For reasons we can only guess at Jim and Gary chose to withdraw their appeal. They said they would not take the time to file a lawsuit against the ATA and were glad to be thrown off the sinking ATA train. Well we all know that wasn’t true.

By this time, if you are paying attention, you can see a pattern forming. Jim and Gary say one thing and do the opposite. The simple fact is that throughout this entire ordeal both Jim and Gary have acted as though they are above the rules of the ATA, and at every turn they have chosen to mislead and misrepresent the truth.

I know very little about the lawsuit that was recently settled. Having some experience with lawsuits I know that insurance companies weigh the cost of a settlement against the cost of potential attorney and court fees to fight such an action. An example would be if it cost 50K to fight a frivolous lawsuit and the insurance company can settle for 5K they will. It does not matter about the truth or who is right or wrong. I am sure Jim and Gary kept the settlement to a low amount so the ATA hands would be tied and a settlement would be guaranteed. I am still wondering why they filed the case with the California Courts. Just because the two live in the State, California has no standing or connection with the complaint. This is yet again a glairing example of some individual’s abuse of the system, by filing frivolous lawsuits, as a means of bullying another party.

Here’s some food for thought; because of the ATA’s willingness to settle instead of hitting the matter head on and incurring the possible cost they have potentially opened the door for every shooter who was or is given a suspension as a result of a negative finding, on any investigation, which is an opportunity to circumvent the ATA appeals process by file a frivolous law suit. Let alone it shows the complete lack of protection the Delegates have when investigating complaints, as they can be held punitively liable when they are listed on the suit.

Jim and Gary posted on TS.com that they had filed the suit against the ATA and then they posted again that the suit was settled. They posted that the ATA wanted the details of the case and settlement sealed. If you read their filed complaint it states that they, Jim and Gary, requested the court seal the file. Which is it? Can’t have it both ways.

To end this whole thing, when people join an organization they are agreeing to follow the rules set down by that organization. Unfortunately we have several groups in California that believe that the rules are there for everyone else, not themselves. I have unfortunately seen enough of the games played by each of these groups to discover they are truly the same. When convenient they won’t hesitate to throw the rules out the window, misrepresent, or down right lie to turn a situation in their favor. They play the same games pointing fingers at others while claiming they are above board and honest. You soon discover they are all the same.

At some point the ATA, EC needs to wake-up, step up and take some responsibility. This entire issue should never have gotten to this point. The ATA, EC should have put out the correct information in the beginning. This might have at least made Jim and Gary stop and think about the lies and misinformation they would post.

And now for the coop-de-graw, Jim and Gary received their suspensions from the ATA, EC for failing to provide the investigating Delegate the documentation that was requested. That’s it, nothing more nothing less. It was a blatant violation of one of our originations simplest rules. The mere fact that they played games for over a year is a side note and I would hope the ATA Members would hold them accountable for years to come.

So that concludes the “Rest of the Story”.

James Hammond
 

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We should all believe the EC from the some past Presidents on down are so adorned by halos that no rules violations were ever permitted or encouraged.

Except for the ones I've witnessed!!
 

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Gary and I are compelled not to respond to this diatribe by the confidentiality agreement contained in the Settlement.

While Mr Hammond is no longer an ATA Delegate, he was when this matter was being adjudicated and the ATA should have required him to adhere to the Settlement's provisions. As such, we consider this post a gross violation of the Settlement Agreement and have notified the ATA of our position.

I will offer the clarification that both Gary and I are members in good standing of North Hollywood Sportsman Club.

We also regret that Mr. Hammond saw fit to drag Eileen Williamson into this post because, as most of you know, Eileen has a pretty full plate of emotions dealing with Steve's recovery.

While we have made this request before, if any of Mr. Hammond's anonymous "unhappy shooters" wish to post why they were unhappy with their Las Vegas 1000 participation we would welcome their comments. So far none have posted nor have we ever received a complaint or request that we did not deal with to the shooter's satisfaction.
 

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With all due respect to Mr. Hammond, I pretty much lost
Interest after the first three paragraphs. All the parties appear to have some culpability, and the real victim in the end was trapshooting.
 

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So Hammond time has finally come, there are so many inaccurate statements above I can not believe it. I do not have the time or even want to get into it. This horse has been beat enough let it go. I do know one thing this Sunday we will have almost 20 squads of shooters and all of them will be glad to see Gary and Jim and could care less if you were there or not. Have a nice year shooting trap next year in Southern California. Terry Bilbey Redlands Shooting Park.
 

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Discussion Starter #11
Jim,

Once again you need to check your facts at the door. You filed the lawsuit on July 11 in the Ventura County Court. Court records show you filed proof of service with the court on 07/23/13. If you recall the ATA was listed as the primary/only party. For your records you can verify the facts at www.ventura.courts.ca.gov. Thank god for public records, how many times have you been listed as a defendant? A quick search will give you that number also. I like the response you provided on the last case.

Trying to say that I was a delegate when the case was being adjudicated is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. I did not run for Delegate and a new delegate was appointed at the end of June 2013. Again, if it sounds good, it must be true. Strike one!! Check your facts on the CGSTA website under June minutes for 2013.

To insinuate that I broke confidentiality agreement in the suit is Strike two. You might want to let the readers know I was not listed on the suit, not a delegate, was not ordered by the Ventura County Court or ATA stating, I must adhere to the agreement. That was your agreement.

I did not know about the suit until you posted the TS.com thread letting the world know you filed a lawsuit. Remember you did that because you wanted to make it convenient to the shooters. Your claim was because it is public they would be able to find it so you made it easy. Sure, if they searched the right court but the written suit was not available online until you posted it.

One thing you should check on is when you deliberately lie and mislead people on a public forum insinuating that I conspired, was involved in lies, attack my credibility and character, I have a right to address the issues as I see fit. So if you would have had me served and in court; I am sure after some discussion between the judge and me, I would be able to protect my good name and character. You opened the door for your one sided story on the World Wide Web. Dave and I did not.

Like I have said, the three of you in a deposition setting would have been to easy. You make it sound as if we would be the only ones.

I like how you threw the lead reclamation company in the body of the suit. That was cleaver to say the least. Is what I don’t understand is why would you think it would be a good business decision for them to sale your shot screens? Aren’t they in the business for lead recovery and removal? With shot screens it reduces the amount of work available to them in years to come, which means lower profits, which eventually means you’re out of business. You have a lot of practice at that.

You were very happy when you could say whatever you wanted. Again you say on a public forum that you wanted the suit to remain unsealed. But your suit says you wanted it sealed and never to be talked about it again. So which is it, can’t say one thing in the forum and do the opposite in court paperwork.

Who was the shooter that tried to punch Gary in the clubhouse in 2011? Was he not upset about the refund amount you guys offered him? Where does it say you don't offer refunds because I missed it? So I guess he is a happy shooter or one that does not want to go through the slanderous attacks like Dave and I have. Did he return for 2012? How many did not?

As far as me dragging Eileen into the matter she did that in her previous post on TS.com when she reviewed the facts as you guys chose to provide. She did admit that you should have complied with the investigation at the time and not after the fact. But sure it was chalked up to a technicality/oversight. The credit card statement had to come from one of you guys. Again you take no responsibility in anything, which is no surprise. I am sure you provided her with all of the emails, request, and the content of Gary’s voicemail message.

Glad to here you are back in good standing with North Hollywood.

(Terry I will get back to you)

James Hammond
 

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Ah! The "Old" TS.com makes a re-appearance!


Hip, hip, hooray! Pour a cup of coffee, gentlemen...let's get down to it.


PS - we're taking up a collection to send Gary Longsnot to your shoots - all of them, in fact.
 

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Seems like "he said, she said, This is such BS. I am sure this is in the best interest of the ATA and shooters. A Pi$$ing and Moaning session. Based on what seems to be a couple of shooters that didn't hear about something regarding lunch. JHC! The fact that the EC/BD who ever allowed this to get past go is a glaring example of a very poorly (at the top) run business.

Makes you want to buy another life membership just to support them!!


Ron Wilson
 

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I thought we had an election to elect a new delegate.

There is nothing in the June 2013 minutes about a delegate being appointed, if so who was appointed as delegate.
 
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