I shoot the Winchester Silver Bullet (factory stated 1250 fps printed on each box). I have never considered the SAAMI specifications as these shells are accepted as legal by the ATA, and I really like the way they break targets. Just my opinion, but I really hope we can let it rest now.
Where in the rules does it say anything about Dram Equivalent? Rules are on the link above. The FPS. is listed on the box of shells, and perfectly legal.
Just so we don't go through this again, LS believes that you take the speed of your shell, say 1340 , and then you get to subtract 90 from that giving you 1250. Now, get this... since 1250 is legal for ATA, presto, the 1340 is also ATA legal because Saami says so.
Gary, the SAAMI specifications do NOT apply! Only ATA rules. Plus or minus 90fps cannot be used as plus 90fps to the 1250fps 1 1/8 oz load or the 1235fps 1 1/8 oz load as such a recipe would exceed the ATA rules. Sorry! BUT, you can load up to 1290fps for the 1 1/8 load if you want, and still be within ATA rules.
Gary, your posts often have a unique humor aspect to them. That being said...
I recall a conversaion from a Federal Amunition representative that once told me... "when a box of Gold Medals say they are rated at 1200 fps,as stated on the box (not 3 drams, as that designation is somewhat unscientific), it does not mean that the average speed is 1200fps, but that the minimun speed is 1200 fps. You are guaranteed that all shells will go 1200 fps.
Again, that does not mean half the shells will go 1170, and half will go 1230.
Many shooters, myself included, have chronographed Gold Medal 1200 fps shells. My average recorded velocity for these are around 1230 fps. My chrono may not be a factory quality unit, but on many occasions, that is the speed I get.
On testing Federal's HCP Gold Medal load which has a stated velocity of 1235 on the label, I ususally chrono these at an average of 1275. They are a little too hot for me, especially in the summer.
To your question of... "Does the SAMMI specs of + or - 90 fps apply... I don't know if Ammunition Manufacturers use this "90 fps" rule or not, but there are probably a few shells in every HCP box that "DO" go over 1290 fps (which is the legal limit in ATA for 1 1/8 oz.) in the Factory HCP versions. If they do, no one seems to care.
It seems in your world of possibilities, a shell rated at 1200, with the leeway of a hypothetical + or - 90 fps is the max legal availabe shell. Wake up and realize it just isn't so. Some shooters walk on the edge and shoot the 1250's, and God Bless Them.
Now let's go one step further: Some Shot shells say Max Dram Equivalent!!
What does this mean, it does not say to what dram could be 2 Dram 2 1/2 Dram
3 Dram 3 1/4 Dram 3 1/2 dram all of these shells are loaded by Mfgrs and SAAMI standards on all factory Loads is Plus or Minus 90 fps.
Those are SAAMI specifications not mine, not the ATA's The ATA says 1 1/8th 1290 fps max, if a Mfgr loads the 1290fps shells then SAAMI specs are Plus or Minus 90 fps so in reality it could be as high as 1380 or as low as 1200 according to SAAMI mfgrs loading specs.
This is absolutely true going to the extreme end of the limits.
Now if a Super Hdcp Winchester Chrono'd at 1340 it is a legal shell according to SAAMI, that is cut and dried and any court would support this load if it got to court.
That is strictly because the ATA removed the 3 dram 1200 fps wording in the rule book. In the 1970s Target shells were up to 1260 you were allowed 5%
but most shells were 1210 max speed in the 60s and 70s
If an NITRO 27 @1235 fps SAAMI allows 1325 fps max and 1145 fps minimum.
Regardless of what the ATA specifies.
Neil Winston pulled this SAAMI specs in his intrepretation of MFGRS Limits.
Just changing the rule book from the 1960s specifying 3 dram 1200 fps shells.
The Mfgrs hold close to those tolerances.
Believe it or not Some Grand American Shells had more than an 1 1/8th oz which is 492 grains of shot Some Federals Loaded for the Grand had up to 520 Grains of shot.
Why?
Because they wanted the publicity of the wins with their shells.
Publicity of the winning shells. SELLS THEM.
Federal Papers were the choice years ago bar none, you ask why, because they were faster and had more shot in them, and that Red Base got a lot of targets called dead as they saw a piece, it was that RED Hard Plastic Base that seperated.
Last part to understand his dementia. You need to understand that Saami standards do not add/ subtract 90 fps from the speed of ANY shells. He can't grasp this. The 90 plus/minus is a range around the Saami standard speed for a particular DE. There is no such thing as 1250 plus / minus 90 since 1250 is not a baseline speed for any of the DEs.
Shell speed is never adjusted for the 90. Shell speed is shell speed, all you do with it for ATA is compare it to max of 1290, period. To determine DE, you compare speed to the DE base plus or minus 90. You never adjust the speed for the 90, it only serves to give a range to the definition of any particular DE.
SAAMI specs are based on 1200fps plus or minus 90fps..All published handicap loads are legal at 1230-1235...Why is that so hard for you to understand Gary....
Now you have gone and done it. The train has offically wrecked and hit the load of cattle on the crossing. Now my screen is all covered in Bu11$&it again.
Where does the fact that different bore diameters render different velocities? One of those hot Sporting Clay loads might be under the legal threshold in a back bored gun. Would that shell be ruled illegal because it says so on the box?
Or would it have to be run over the chrono just like a reload?
Great answer Jack except I believe Ohio is hoping to see Dr. Longshorts go "down under". I'll throw in $50 on the one way ticket Why do we feed the troll?
Please, give it a rest !!! What part of "anything over 1290 fps in a 1 1/8 ounce load is NOT legal" do you NOT understand ??? Pheasantmaster summed it up best; nothing to do with SAAMI and Dram Equivalents haven't been used in YEARS. Get over it, and leave the normal people alone. I do still run into old-timers who must not keep up with the updates to the rule book (or just like living in the past) quote the 1 1/8 ounce 3 Dram 1200 fps, but as you know, that was changed years ago. NOTHING in the updated rule books mentions SAAMI specs or talks about D.E. , just what the "LEGAL" loads are. I pretty much feel everyone on this site (except for yourself) understands what we (the ATA shooters that follow the rules) are supposed to use, and if any of us find someone using illegal shells, especially factory ammo that states the speed or shot charge that would make that load illegal, we would report this knowledge to a shoot official. We wouldn't be trying to figure out how to "beat the rap" in some court as you suggest. Please, get a life and quit wasting our time. I know I shouldn't have started this thread, but I am just amazed that you still just don't get it, and keep wondering when you are going to finally have that "Oh WOW" moment where reality sets in.
Enough already,
Mike* (MH*)
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