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Discussion Starter #1
I chose to make a separate thread here so as not to hijack a legitimate question the OP made in a thread regarding sources of springs.
A comment was made in that thread as to the importance of getting springs of identical weight - which leads me to ask the following questions:


Question - can most shooters/any shooters, distinguish between +/- say 2 to 5 pound variation is hammer spring strength?
In the example from the other thread it was stated that shots were missed after changing springs because the replacement was lighter. If the replacement spring had been lighter, would't that slow the lock times and thus cause the shot to be long? Or insignificant different within a 30' pattern?
If you had 2 identical triggers, one contained a leaf hammer spring at 19kg and the other contained a leaf hammer spring at 22kg, and a the triggers were interchanged at random without the shooter knowing which trigger was in the gun, would the shooter be able to distinguish the difference in an extended test?

I do not think I could tell the difference. I have had leaf hammer springs crack thus causing miss-fires, I would shoot several targets with miss-fires in between fires, breaking all the targets - look at the springs after the post and proceed to change out the cracked spring and proceed to run the next post. I would contend that the cracked spring was weaker and slower than the new one.

I am not trying to dispute anything, nor troll, just looking for answers and honest opinions.
Your mileage may vary.
 

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Have never even thought about this on a leaf spring, I'm sure I could not tell the difference but I shoot a release.
Have always been told they hold tension until they break.
On a coil spring I find the need to replace it every year at some point.
I will find a 1/4" difference in the old one versus the new one.
That does make a difference in release time.
 

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Question - can most shooters/any shooters, distinguish between +/- say 2 to 5 pound variation is hammer spring strength?
I certainly can't. Some of my best scores ever were shot with an old Beretta 682 that had pretty sloppy triggers. That old gun went 108,000 firings and never had any parts replaced in it except a front bead that got knocked off. I wish I still had it, but my friends convinced me that I needed a higher dollar gun to shoot better scores so I replaced it with a K80 and then a Perazzi. Funny thing is my scores didn't improve as was expected.
 

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but my friends convinced me that I needed a higher dollar gun to shoot better scores so I replaced it with a K80 and then a Perazzi. Funny thing is my scores didn't improve as was expected.
WOW! There's a surprise, eh? The friends didn't happen to supply the high $ gun
 

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I have always heard that leaf springs stay consistent until they break but coil springs get weaker. In my own experience with the TMX when the leaf spring breaks I get no warning or FTF's before it breaks and when I replace the trigger with my coil spring spare trigger with an ancient spring, my scores are the same as with the leaf spring trigger. I don't own that special tool to easily replace the coil spring on a TM trigger assembly. One time a "gunsmith" replaced a coil spring with his own version of a Perazzi spring and in less than 50 targets I had a cracked hammer as a result.
 

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I agree with you GrandDoc. I remove the trigger group of my MX10 to drop the hammers while supporting them with my thumb. On occasion I have noticed a large difference between the strength of the hammer fall between the two hammers and upon closer inspection, have discovered a crack in the weak hammer spring. That weak spring was still causing the primers to go off, but the difference between the spring strengths was huge, yet it did not cause me to miss any targets (certainly not 12 in a row) due to the difference in the timing that the light spring had caused. I am not disputing the fact that zzt missed 12 targets in a row, I am simply sceptical that the new weaker hammer spring had anything to do with those misses.
 

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I feel that most could not distinguish a difference even if the actual lock time varied by 50% I have several high end guns with reported "fast lock time" as well as 1100's and Mod 12's which are much slower. Regardless of which gun I shoot I look at the bird with roughly the same lead and the target usually breaks. It would be interesting to see test results comparing leads required with fast vs slow triggers. I feel gun fit is much more important than letting lock time mess with your head. Marc
 

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Jo2, I didn't believe it either. It was one of my squad mates that told me changing springs often took a while to get used to. I believe it, because it happened to me. Also, at a Phil Kiner clinic I was shooting my Perazzi with a trigger job I had just had done by W. I started at 3.5lbs pull. The second day Phil asked me what I was doing, because he said I was short shooting everything. Turns out the trigger job had worn in over the first 100 - 200 shots and was now down to 2.5lb. The same thing happened with the lighter leaf spring.
 

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Just the other day I asked an All American if it would be a good idea to change my leaf springs annually. He replied, " No, it will cause you to miss targets until you get used to the new spring, shoot them until they break".
But... not long ago, I changed triggers just before a shoot and missed one target of 25 first trap. I do not really know what to believe.
 

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keoni, it may have been that your replacement spring was very close to, or the same as your broken spring. In another life I was a tool and die maker. It just beggars the imagination that there is so much variation in leaf springs that are so simple to make there should be none. It does not speak well for Perazzi's spring supplier's quality control.
 

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Just the other day I asked an All American if it would be a good idea to change my leaf springs annually. He replied, " No, it will cause you to miss targets until you get used to the new spring, shoot them until they break".
So...this All American told you that if you change a spring before they break that the new spring will cause you to miss, but if you wait until the spring breaks, it won't cause you to miss? Does he mean to imply that the spring that broke didn't weaken during its' lifespan in service, like the unbroken one did, to the point that there is a difference between it and the new one? If he did, his ability to shoot is far better than his ability to reason.

zzt, Perazzi's quality control is fine. I shot a Perazzi and many of my friends shoot Perassi shotguns, so I have seen trigger springs break on several occasions (it would be nice if they could make a spring that didn't break). Never, have I seen a person miss a target due to a difference in tension between the old and new spring. If they missed, it could be attributed more to the distraction of having to change a spring in the middle of a sub event with everyone waiting and watching while he found the new spring and changed it. If your allegation is true that the timing is different between the old and new spring, how long does it take to get used to the new timing-10 shots, a 100 shots, a 1000 shots, or do they have to wait until the new spring gets as weak as the old one before their timing is spot on again?
 

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Discussion Starter #12
So...this All American told you that if you change a spring before they break that the new spring will cause you to miss, but if you wait until the spring breaks, it won't cause you to miss? Does he mean to imply that the spring that broke didn't weaken during its' lifespan in service, like the unbroken one did, to the point that there is a difference between it and the new one? If he did, his ability to shoot is far better than his ability to reason.

zzt, Perazzi's quality control is fine. I shot a Perazzi and many of my friends shoot Perassi shotguns, so I have seen trigger springs break on several occasions (it would be nice if they could make a spring that didn't break). Never, have I seen a person miss a target due to a difference in tension between the old and new spring. If they missed, it could be attributed more to the distraction of having to change a spring in the middle of a sub event with everyone waiting and watching while he found the new spring and changed it. If your allegation is true that the timing is different between the old and new spring, how long does it take to get used to the new timing-10 shots, a 100 shots, a 1000 shots, or do they have to wait until the new spring gets as weak as the old one before their timing is spot on again?
Jo2 - i tend to support your logic.
I will not say what zzt contends did not happen, or will not happen. What I can say is that of all the springs I have had break, I did not miss the next target due to the new spring, nor have I observed a squad mate miss due to the spring change itself.
Just my observations.
 

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Replacing a leaf spring on a Release trigger is more of a PITA than on a Pull trigger because you have to remove the release hook first. I carry a spare trigger assembly in my shooting bag for this reason and it takes me less than 60 seconds to switch. I replace the broken spring after the Event is over.
 

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Jo2, I didn't believe it either. It was one of my squad mates that told me changing springs often took a while to get used to. I believe it, because it happened to me. Also, at a Phil Kiner clinic I was shooting my Perazzi with a trigger job I had just had done by W. I started at 3.5lbs pull. The second day Phil asked me what I was doing, because he said I was short shooting everything. Turns out the trigger job had worn in over the first 100 - 200 shots and was now down to 2.5lb. The same thing happened with the lighter leaf spring.
Lock time and trigger pull weight are entirely different things and are in no way alike

And BTW - a trigger job that "wore in" to the tune of a lb over a couple hun targets is some shit work.
 
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