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Apparently not satisfied with the latest shoot off format that was changed just four? years ago, they're changing it again. Not back to the old format though...

Someone care to try to decipher this??

Shotgun Finals. Skeet, Trap and Double Trap Finals will also change from the current semifinal-medal match format to a progressive elimination Final. Shotgun finalists will shoot in qualification rank order, with the qualification ranking deciding ties for 6th, 5th, 4th and 3rd places. All Trap finalists will shoot 25 targets with eliminations or medal decisions occurring after 25, 30, 35, 40 and 50 targets. Double Trap finalists will shoot 15 doubles with eliminations taking place after 15, 20, 25, 30 and 40 doubles. The new Skeet Final will be based on 10-target sequences that include regular and reverse doubles on station 3, a regular or reverse double on station 4 and regular and reverse doubles on station 5. Station 4 doubles will alternate between regular and reverse doubles for each 10-target sequence. Skeet eliminations or medal decisions will occur after 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 targets.

This is the most significant change, but there are others.

Approved changes in 2017-2020 ISSF Rules
 

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For the Trap Shooting Final they should go to the "chase" format like NASCAR has. It makes it more exciting for the fans when the luckiest guy in the "chase" wins instead of the best guy.

Just take the top 16 trap shooters and have a 16 man Annie Oakley to decide the winner of the trap event.
 

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Since some here argue that the ATA should change its shot speed rules because no one else does it that way, I expect a rush here to demand that ATA shoot-offs be decided this way:

"All Trap finalists will shoot 25 targets with eliminations or medal decisions occurring after 25, 30, 35, 40 and 50 targets."

Looks good to me. Well, maybe a little hitch. . .

Neil
 

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Apparently not satisfied with the latest shoot off format that was changed just four? years ago, they're changing it again. Not back to the old format though...

Someone care to try to decipher this??

Shotgun Finals. Skeet, Trap and Double Trap Finals will also change from the current semifinal-medal match format to a progressive elimination Final. Shotgun finalists will shoot in qualification rank order, with the qualification ranking deciding ties for 6th, 5th, 4th and 3rd places. All Trap finalists will shoot 25 targets with eliminations or medal decisions occurring after 25, 30, 35, 40 and 50 targets. Double Trap finalists will shoot 15 doubles with eliminations taking place after 15, 20, 25, 30 and 40 doubles. The new Skeet Final will be based on 10-target sequences that include regular and reverse doubles on station 3, a regular or reverse double on station 4 and regular and reverse doubles on station 5. Station 4 doubles will alternate between regular and reverse doubles for each 10-target sequence. Skeet eliminations or medal decisions will occur after 20, 30, 40, 50 and 60 targets.

This is the most significant change, but there are others.

Approved changes in 2017-2020 ISSF Rules
All pretty straight forward. Well the bunker one anyway :) . After 25 single-barrel targets (where all shooters get the same targets over the 25), the lowest score is eliminated. The remaining 5 shooters each shoot another 5 targets at which point the lowest score is eliminated and so on at 35 and 40 targets, leaving just two shooters to shoot a further 10 targets to decide the gold and silver medal positions.

Any ties at each elimination stage are decided on qualification stage countback (round scores starting with the last quali round). If both lowest scorers hit the same score in the last qualification round it moves back to round 4, then round 3, etc, until there is a result. If both shooters shot exactly the same qualification round scores then it reverts to individual target countback, commencing with the last target of the last qualification round (previously it started with the first target of the last qualification round and counted forward). Therefore, the last shooter to miss a target is out. Miss your last qualification target at your peril!!

Any tie after the full 50 target sequence (tie for gold and silver positions) is decided with a miss and out shoot-off as previous.

What I don't get is how the targets are presented from 25 onwards? Does each shooter receive the same 5 targets before the next elimination cut-off point or are they random? If the latter, then the fairness has gone out of it.

I'm sure all will become clear when they publish the latest rule book (not that it's ever going to concern me :(

TD
 

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TD has got it.

After our final and the Women's Skeet Final where Rhode won in Rome at World Cup Finals, we actually shot a mock version of this in Double Trap. It ran very smoothly and was done in less than 30 minutes which the current version can take over an hour. At each elimination the announcer makes a very quick announcement of who has finished in what place then you continue. It was a running total starting at zero and you save a ton of time eliminating miss-n-outs. And although possible, shooting 70 targets in Doubles will not see many ties for the gold.

As for the target sequencing, or fairness: Our first 30 were like a regular round, one A, one B, one C from each station. After that, we are each to get 2 A's, 2 B's, 1 C from each station. The computer chip programmer guy was there watching us and taking notes. Glenn Eller writes his own code here in this office on his spare time and will tell you that while it may be a pain in the ass, you could write it so that everyone gets the same sequence even though you are coming up a pair short on each station when the top two shooters finish. If you miss before that, then, oh well I guess....

All the participants in the final liked it as far as I could tell from the discussion afterward, which played a part in them adopting these rules I'm sure. It makes sense, it's quicker, it's easier for a non-shooter to follow what is going on and realize that the people left shooting are winning, etc...

Jeff Holguin
 

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As with the previous/current format there is massive hue and cry from the sidelines. Since the scheme is for the shooters likely to encounter it the question is do they like it? Jeff says they do.

It looks like the central element is time. Not the the recent one was all that time consuming. And it was certainly watchable with the decisions of place all hinging on, many times, a single target. I suppose the same will happen with the new system but IMO the countback biz is bogus. Shoot it off, it just doesn't take that long.
 

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Pretty soon you will not have to shoot. Just sign up and they will draw names to see who will win. That is the P.C. way of picking a champion. I'm surprised the EC or BOD has not thought of this already. Roger C.
 

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Pretty soon you will not have to shoot. Just sign up and they will draw names to see who will win. That is the P.C. way of picking a champion. I'm surprised the EC or BOD has not thought of this already. Roger C.
The future of the ATA - you let the cat outta the bag!

Back in the day we had some fun at Litchfield Park. Seem as tho it has gone away while I was inconvenienced.
 
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Jeff, as I understand it your qualification score carries over, which is a good thing.
It appeared that this format was used in the rifle and pistol finals in Rio?
 

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Jeff, as I understand it your qualification score carries over, which is a good thing.
It appeared that this format was used in the rifle and pistol finals in Rio?
Qualifications only carry over for tie breaking purposes, which is better than nothing. And with all shooters starting at zero ties happen often.

Rifle/pistol have already been running this type of finals system, yes.

Miss n outs sound simple but I have been involved in a 56 bird one, and have seen one go over 100! Using the qualification score to break ties will save lots of time and keep the whole process moving along. Gold ties will be shot off.

Jeff
 

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Qualifications only carry over for tie breaking purposes, which is better than nothing. And with all shooters starting at zero ties happen often.

Rifle/pistol have already been running this type of finals system, yes.

Miss n outs sound simple but I have been involved in a 56 bird one, and have seen one go over 100! Using the qualification score to break ties will save lots of time and keep the whole process moving along. Gold ties will be shot off.

Jeff

Granted I'm not involved in that type of shooting but why would a prior score not connected to the ongoing competition be used to settle ties that are not shot during the event. Seems to me that time is more important than fairness to the competitors and if so you can save a lot of time by eliminating the sport. Agree with HMB. Miss and out. Who cares. In fact the longer the shoot-off goes the more pressure on the shooters and the more drama for the Spectators who hang on every bird.
 

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ISSF is changing the shootoff rules!?? That's it, I'm done with them. I shot lousy scores at today's jackpot event...yet I still remained somewhat happy to be out and about. But reading this thread ruined my whole weekend.
 

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Granted I'm not involved in that type of shooting but why would a prior score not connected to the ongoing competition be used to settle ties that are not shot during the event. Seems to me that time is more important than fairness to the competitors and if so you can save a lot of time by eliminating the sport. Agree with HMB. Miss and out. Who cares. In fact the longer the shoot-off goes the more pressure on the shooters and the more drama for the Spectators who hang on every bird.

The problem is when the miss n out is trying to determine who finishes 6th or 5th, in which case you are right, who cares? Or when two tie on 4th, and you have to stop the final to conduct a miss n out which entails having the other shooters sit down and who knows for how long.

Trust me when I say that this is an improvement over the previous version. Used to be your final was simply added to your qualification score. It's not like ATA where everyone in the shootoff shot the same score, so the qualification should, and now does carry some weight.

JH
 
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