Yeah. They're called calipers.

The part that sticks out the end is used to measure depths.

 

http://www.mytoolstore.com/starrett...kBRCGhMPFtev8p58BEiQAaMLmqQB5PpB4Sm9DrFRE_bYrDBVgwm5o3GBsW9ajCdm0ZNYaAgTw8P8HAQ

Here you go. Only $250.

Don T

 

It's called a MEC Universal charge bar and a scale. Just twist the dial to adjust and weigh the amount of shot that works.

 

Yes, I have one. It was made by Pacific and it's called a " Wad Column Indicator" for 12 Gauge.

Drop the powder, set the indicator on top of the powder.

Read the scale on the indicator, at the mouth of the case.

Use the chart to determined how long the wad column needs to be.

Install wad column, drop the shot.

Double check with another line indicating how much is needed for a good crimp.

It was needed a lot when we were using fiber wads, but it works the same way today.

Ajax

BTW it's pretty old. The price on it is $1.99

 

I got one from Herters in the late 60's . Haven't seen it in years. Must be floating around in my stuff somewhere.

 

Pretty interesting about the wad column indicator, I have never seen or used one, at least a bought one. I remember using a piece of dowel rod and marking it with a pencil to try to figure out how much filler wad to use. Since one piece wads got easy to get and affordable, I just pretty much use the supplied data.

 

What I envision is a metal rod, just very slightly under the diameter of the inside of the shot cup with markings indicating the shot charge that would fill the shell to the proper depth for a given shot weight to provide for a solid crimp without dishing or failing to completely close. Such a gauge would have to be calibrated for hard shot and another for chilled shot because the volume needed would be slightly greater for hard (because of the slightly lower density caused by the antimony) than chilled shot.

Pyrdek I do understand what you want but I am confused. You ask for something to measure the volume and then you want the same tool to give you the proper weight. I don't believe that is possible which doesn't matter as the weight is not important to start with.

As long as the shot charges are consistent the only thing I would be concerned with is the volume drop. Every reloading machine you buy is set up to drop by volume not by weight.

Bob Lawless

 

(4/3) pi r^3

or pour water in it and then measure water

 

MAH66,

What you say makes a lot of sense, especially as it is based on a wad makers recommendation. What I wonder if it is possible to cast, say a slug the length and diameter of a 1.125 Oz. column of hard shot to simulate a load of shot. Such a cast slug would have to have a core sized to allow for the air space a shot column would take. If you have proper machine tools, this "slug" could be made of plastic, aluminum or steel since its weight would not matter. The only matter would be that the volume it takes up would be the same as the stated volume of the indicated shot charge. One concern however would be the thickness of the particular wad being used shot cup wall (petal) thickness. I know that two of the wads I use, both Claybusters, one the 1100-12 and the other the 4100 for the same 1 oz. or 7/8 Oz. load has the 1100 having a thicker petal thickness than the 4200. How much of a difference it makes is sort of getting into nitpicking but that difference does exist. I also see that the shotcup, petals and even the overpowder cup is harder in the 1100 wad as compared to the 4100 wad. I suspect other wads from different manufacturers may share similar differences.

Another variable would be the actual length of the shell and/or the well thickness, or base wad or maybe plastic used in the shell. I have noticed that a given load when used in reloading once fired Pink Federal shells to a perfect crimp will allow some dished crimps on some of the, supposedly identical, red Federal shells and there is a greater variability among the red shells than there is among the Pink shells. It is not much but it does exist.

Ivanhoe,
What I mean is that a chilled shot load, say 1.125 oz will take up slightly less room than a hard shot 1.125 Oz. load because of the greater density of the chilled shot. Or, conversely, a volume that will hold 1.125 oz. of chilled shot will hold less than 1.125 oz of hard shot. Thus, if a "rod" measured the correct depth, i.e. volume for chilled then that same volume would be less than 1.125 oz. for hard shot. I do not know exactly how much less but if it is enough it might influence the crimp if adjustment is not made to compensate. Obviously this difference would increase as shot charge weight is increased to 1.2.5 oz. and increase again for 1.5 oz.

In order to maintain the exact same distance from the top of the shot to the shell mouth would require more volume to hold the increase volume of hard shot as compared to chilled shot.

 

All you need to do is measure the volume the wad takes up. Then you can compare new loads to one that crimps properly. The powder and shot volumes can be calculated.

I made a measuring tool to measure wad volume. It consisted of a closed cylinder with a .720" bore. First you place a known volume of powder in the cylinder. Then you seat the wad on the powder by pushing the wad into the cylinder by hand (finger). Then you measure the distance from the bottom of the shot cup to the top of the cylinder. Then you can calculate the wad volume.

Once you know the acceptable volume for a particular hull you can gin up new loads by tweaking the shot volume slightly (plus or minus).

 

Every reloading machine you buy is set up to drop by volume not by weight.

Bob,

What volume does your reloader drop?

Looking at the reloader manuals of my reloaders, they say, 1: "The shot bar has a preliminary setting for 1 1/8oz shot of weight. The shot bar will need to be adjusted to your desired weight.", and 2: "a 302-118 is a single stage charge bar and will drop 1-1/8 oz. of shot.

I will let them know Bob is saying the manuals are incorrect in the wording they use.

John

 

Bob,

What volume does your reloader drop?

Looking at the reloader manuals of my reloaders, they say, 1: "The shot bar has a preliminary setting for 1 1/8oz shot of weight. The shot bar will need to be adjusted to your desired weight.", and 2: "a 302-118 is a single stage charge bar and will drop 1-1/8 oz. of shot.

I will let them know Bob is saying the manuals are incorrect in the wording they use.

So John when you buy a machine that doesn't have an adjustable charge bar and is supposed to be dropping 1 1/8 ounces what does the shot charge weigh??????

Have you weighed the charge from a non-adjustable shot bar????

Maybe you are just looking for an argument, I can tell you I don't have an adjustable bar/bushing machine and all of mine drop just about 1 1/16 ounces of shot. Of course John I am not as brilliant as you think you are so I probably would never be able make any kind of statement that satisfies you John.

BTW John you can tell the THEM (who ever them is) anything you want to tell them just weigh 1 shot charge out of a non-adjustable 1 1/8 ounce charge bar and see what you get and remember it has to be mag shot not chilled

Oh yea you find out from THEM if they are referring to chilled shot or mag shot.

Bob Lawless

 

Measure the depth and diameter of the bushing you are using. That tells you what the volume of the shot will be. Use depth micrometer and internal gauge to measure the shell. Compare. Remember volume of a cylinder is pi times the square of the radius times the height. Remember that the crimp will compress the wad a little so it fits. Experiment. Crimp settings are important.

 

Is that how you reload, by volume of shot?

 

A reloaders bushings are dropping the charge by volume. I don't give two shits what your manual says, all loaders I have seen drop by volume. The shot or powder fills the bushing until the volume of its cavity is filled. It is not filling to a certain weight. It has no ability too. There is no method for weighing the drop to a desired weight and stopping when the desired weight is reached. It simply fills the void.

 

You are correct, and to follow the loading manuals we... or I change the volume to get the weight I want. If I am loading 492 grains of 7.5's with a certain setting or bar and I go to 8's or 9's and I do not change the volume what do you think happens to the weight of the charge.

Just today was loading 488+- grains of 8's went to the next bag of shot and whoa 505 grains+-, Don't you think I better change the volume to drop the weight I want? Maybe not.

So John when you buy a machine that doesn't have an adjustable charge bar and is supposed to be dropping 1 1/8 ounces what does the shot charge weigh??????

Have you weighed the charge from a non-adjustable shot bar????

Maybe you are just looking for an argument, I can tell you I don't have an adjustable bar/bushing machine and all of mine drop just about 1 1/16 ounces of shot. Of course John I am not as brilliant as you think you are so I probably would never be able make any kind of statement that satisfies you John.

BTW John you can tell the THEM (who ever them is) anything you want to tell them just weigh 1 shot charge out of a non-adjustable 1 1/8 ounce charge bar and see what you get and remember it has to be mag shot not chilled

Oh yea you find out from THEM if they are referring to chilled shot or mag shot.

Bob Lawless

Bob,

Use your geniousness then and open up the volume to drop what you want in weight, if you think it is light. There are or I have seen data for 1 1/16oz somewhere Why would you except that certain volume, if it is not the drop weight you want.

Yes bob, when a bar is labeled 1 1/8 it is under certain circumstances of which they know. RCBS gives bushing for 7.5, 8's 8.5's and 9's. Why is that you think?

The second wording is from MEC, "a 302-118 is a single stage charge bar and will drop 1-1/8 oz. of shot.", I think they have fixed bars, don't they?

Shoot well.

John

 

DANG !!! You folks really make it complicated. On my 366 set the wad pusherinner to get the top of the wad just below the crimp folds in the shell so there is room for the shot below the fold. Then I just let the crimp stage push that mess down far enough to make a nice crimp. I did the same thing when I was using a MEC. Same method works for everything from 24gm to 36gm wads and loads.

I knew that reloadin' stuff was too easy to be true. I guess I have to go back an rethink the whole thing and see if I can't make it more complicated.

 

Well 909 if Mr.Hunts has his way it will become a major project just to load a box of shells. The point I have been trying to make to him is that there are many, many reloaders that only have a reloading machine that has a fixed drop they are not adjustable. But in most cases they do drop a consistent shot charge.

That is really all that is needed regardless of Mr. Hunts insistence that everyone is being cheated by the machine manufacturer that don't make adjustable charging bars/bushing. Or he expects these shooter to become machinists an bore out the existing bushings/bars to gain a few more pellets in their shells. That is of course provided you always use the same mag shot because by his own admission different manufacturers use different amounts of antimony.

Bob Lawless

 

After reading much of the above comments, I can see where making an absolutely accurate shot volume gauge would be an almost impossible task give the variables. Now I wonder about making a bushing that is adjustable to insure that the weight of the shot charge can be made exactly what is needed. What I see as a possibility is a set screw through the side of a bushing which can penetrate into the cavity a bit to take up some space. I would then look to put a locking set screw in from the bottom of the bushing to hold the adjusting set screw from shifting. Naturally, the bushing would have to have a bit more volume than the final desired volume since the set screw can only reduce but not expand the bushing cavity. By going this way an exact shoot weight can be dropped by adjusting the bushing, using a scale to weigh the charge, to provide the exact volume needed to compensate for density variation, shot size and other variables.

This would not be what I had originally envisioned but the result, when used in conjunction with some of the things listed in the above comments might provide a viable alternative. This is all based on bushings used in a 366 or Apex. Don't have any other loaders so, as they say, "Your results may vary".

 

What I see as a possibility is a set screw through the side of a bushing which can penetrate into the cavity a bit to take up some space. I would then look to put a locking set screw in from the bottom of the bushing to hold the adjusting set screw from shifting

Possible, I personally use a file and/or a piece of tape. Once a good maximum size is achieved, tape is all that is required. I use 3M Scotch masking tape.

Also, Hornady sells weight shot drop bushings for different size shot.

http://www.hornady.com/store/Shot-Charge-Bushings

And the screw stuffed into the bushing would in no way insure a uniform filling of the bushing

Why not, seems Mec did it.

--------------------------------
"DONE EASILY, ACCURATELY AND SAFELY
A simple adjusting plug entering the powder capacity by means of screw thread, can be positioned and locked to reduce the charge 11 to 18 percent, depending on the diameter of the powder capacity.
VERSATILITY THAT CAN NOT BE EQUALED WITH SLEEVE OR BUSHINGS,
A scale is recommended, though intermediate positions can be determined visually.
To prevent inaccuracies, adjustment for the maximum capacity of the charge bar should position adjusting plug flush with cavity wall.
An adjusting plug can also be installed on the shot side and will provide a like reduction of approximately 11 percent.
Price with adjustment on one side $4.50 (Specify shot or powder)
Price with adjustment for both sides $5.00”
------------

Maybe, they can still do it for Bob's reloading bar.

Sorry I was out shooting while you all where changing the world.

No one is trying to change the world. Though it appears there are those that are trying to say, volume is what we reload, while not understanding why we can use volumetric systems to provide the weight a loader wants and needs to use, or should be using.

Remember Bob's first post, "...as the weight is not important to start with", to me crazy talk for both safety and competitiveness.

Well 909 if Mr.Hunts has his way it will become a major project just to load a box of shells. The point I have been trying to make to him is that there are many, many reloaders that only have a reloading machine that has a fixed drop they are not adjustable. But in most cases they do drop a consistent shot charge.

Bob, you are a funny man, truly. By ensuring ones drop weight is accurate, either with shot drop or powder drop does not make reloading any more of a project. By accepting a fixed drop that is less (weight) than what is desired, is providing those buying factory an advantage. If your objective was to equal a factory load for competitiveness and your loading less pellets/weight than factory you’re not achieving the objective. If you are accepting the lower weight drop to save money or with a belief that using less pellets is an effective way compete equally, go ahead, that is your choice.

That is really all that is needed regardless of Mr. Hunts insistence that everyone is being cheated by the machine manufacturer that don't make adjustable charging bars/bushing. Or he expects these shooter to become machinists an bore out the existing bushings/bars to gain a few more pellets in their shells. That is of course provided you always use the same mag shot because by his own admission different manufacturers use different amounts of antimony.
Bob Lawless

Bob, I never insinuated or insisted your machine is cheating you, you are or should be the master of your machine and finished product. If you accept what is given and it is not what you want, you are cheating yourself, the machine is not. If using a file and/or a piece of tape makes me a machinist, so be it. Thanks for the title.

Bob, could you define "way" for me? I assume 1/16oz under is not "way" low, can I also assume and be correct 1/16oz over is not "way" over?

Here are some pics of some fixed reloading bars from circa 1970. Notice or let it be noted, both powder and shot were fixed, gasp. What does one do, read beginning of post or use a file, tape, nail polish or probably many other ways.

If you look the bar on the right has a shiny hole/cavity. I asked, "why", and gasp, the answer was, get ready, "filed to get weight of shot right", isn't that amazing. Another so called machinist/reloader in the world with a file.

Shoot well

John aka Mr. Hunts

 

I'm still wondering about why you would bother

Do you actually think it would make a difference in your shooting ability?

And the screw stuffed into the bushing would in no way insure a uniform filling of the bushing, only introduce yet another variable. If you want the absolutely same thing every time you are just gonna have to weigh them. That volume derived weight just ain't gonna ever cut it

oh, yeah - early on in my innocence I got one a those Pacific wad measures. Took about 10sec to figure out that is was BS with plastic wads

 

Sorry I was out shooting while you all where changing the world.

 

↑And the screw stuffed into the bushing would in no way insure a uniform filling of the bushing
Why not, seems Mec did it."

The screw only exacerbates the stacking irregularities whether Mec did it or not. NO bushing drops the same weight every time. The pellet stacking is not ordered, it is chaotic. Get over it.

If you're not centering EVERY shot you have no reason to think that your 3-pellet deficient loads are holding you back. You may as well be worrying about the color of your shoe laces - just as productive.

 

↑And the screw stuffed into the bushing would in no way insure a uniform filling of the bushing
Why not, seems Mec did it."

The screw only exacerbates the stacking irregularities whether Mec did it or not. NO bushing drops the same weight every time. The pellet stacking is not ordered, it is chaotic. Get over it.

If you're not centering EVERY shot you have no reason to think that your 3-pellet deficient loads are holding you back. You may as well be worrying about the color of your shoe laces - just as productive.

I will add you to the list, that reloads and picks a bushing for the volume and not for weight of the reloading component it drops.

Never said there was not a tolerance, I think a tolerance was noted in a previous post. Who was talking about a 3 pellet drop, earlier we were talking a 22 pellet drop, and the pellet count does not matter anyway, it is the weight. No need to worry about my shoelaces, is that a diversion. We are talking about safety, as well. I think I can safely assume at least 3 of you would except a 1 1/8 labeled bar and use it with 1 1/8oz data even if the amounts that were being thrown were heavy, maybe as much as 1/16oz heavy, and that my friend is not safe or within the rules(ATA). So when someone proclaims, ""...as the weight is not important to start with", "...the only thing I would be concerned with is the volume drop" and "As long as your loads are not way above the allow weight it won't get you in any trouble", one should take notice.

If you would like to get into how small relatively dense spheres flow, into what you called chaotic stacking, "The pellet stacking is not ordered, it is chaotic", into where you perceive to be a disturbance created by a set screw/plug, I suppose we could. That sounds fun. I bet through a given displacement provided, the drops would be consistent, and that is that matters, right.

Anybody have a bar with the addition of the MEC plug so 909 can give a final say, if it would or did work.

Shoot well and safe

John aka Mr. Hunts

 

909 what you say may be true but the OP poster is asking a question about the volume and a gauge that will tell him the size of the shot charge needed. It doesn't say whether he has to much lead or to little. If it is to much the 22 pellets that John wants to put in certainly won't help the problem.

Bob Lawless

 

So the OP had the following,

With many different postings over the year regarding poor crimps caused by the amount of space the shot & wad occupy (influenced by shell volume and powder density) I am wondering if there is any type of gauge that can measure the depth from the shell mouth to the bottom of the shot cup for various shot charges.
What I envision is a metal rod, just very slightly under the diameter of the inside of the shot cup with markings indicating the shot charge that would fill the shell to the proper depth for a given shot weight to provide for a solid crimp without dishing or failing to completely close. Such a gauge would have to be calibrated for hard shot and another for chilled shot because the volume needed would be slightly greater for hard (because of the slightly lower density caused by the antimony) than chilled shot.
Such a gauge would allow you to see if a given wad, powder, shell and shot combo would provide for a good crimp. If not, and the shot charge thrown by the bushing does weigh, on a scale, the correct amount, then changing one or more of the combination would be indicated. If the gauge indicates a correct volume but the shot is too full or too low, then checking your bushing size might be needed with corrective adjustments to the bushing to provide a correct weight of shot.
Anyone aware of such a deice?

Then Bob had the need to respond with,

Pyrdek I do understand what you want but I am confused. You ask for something to measure the volume and then you want the same tool to give you the proper weight. I don't believe that is possible which doesn't matter as the weight is not important to start with.
As long as the shot charges are consistent the only thing I would be concerned with is the volume drop. Every reloading machine you buy is set up to drop by volume not by weight.
Bob Lawless

Bob gives apparently gives some not so useful information. First, Bob is confused, saying, “I am confused”, and what good does that do for the OP. Then opines, “I don't believe that is possible which doesn't matter as the weight is not important to start with.”. This information is both useless, as it was not the belief of Bob the OP was interested in and the statement contained a false claim, “weight is not important to start with.” Amazing right, and it continues with another interesting claim, “the only thing I would be concerned with is the volume drop.”, then another, “Every reloading machine you buy is set up to drop by volume not by weight.”.
It is pretty clear the OP did not gain any useful insight to his question and the interesting and false claims made by one (Bob) should not enter into the aspect of a reloaders (person) thoughts.

Now to Bobs latest posts. Last one first, on second thought 909 first,

They do that so all the reloads are short pellets so we miss targets and they can laugh at us behind our backs

I guess finding the flow patterns of small relatively dense spheres within a cylinder that has a disruption to chaotic order of stacking, is out.

The reloader is set up to drop a specific weight of a specific size and density of, in this case shot, to achieve the stamped weight, of a fixed bar. It is not about the number of pellets gained or lost when the objective is getting the correct weight.

909,
Here are some words from manuals,
MEC
Compatible components: Primers, wads, powder charge and weight of the shot charge must be in accordance with manufacturers specifications. Handloader guides are available from component manufacturers or possibly from your source of reloading components. We recommend that you use the data listed in the handloader guides. Because we have no control over the type, quality, or quantity of components used, we assume no responsibility relative to your reloading or finished shells.
Hornady,
2. Your loader was furnished with standard bushings, 12 GA. 1 ⅛ oz. #7 ½ shot.
RCBS,
LOADING DATA • Use only laboratory tested reloading data. There are many lab tested shotshell manuals available. Always follow the load data exactly as it is published in any shotshell reloading manual. • Never substitute components • OBSERVE ALL WARNINGS ABOUT THE USE OF MAXIMUM LISTED LOADS
11/8 oz. #71/2 shot bushing
Carefully check the charge weights thrown as they can vary based…, … type of shot used.
The Shot bushings were calibrated to soft lead shot. Chilled or Magnum shot has a higher antimony content and though the shot size may be #8 or #7.5 etc., there is less mass/weight for the same volume versus soft lead. Bushings may be enlarged to drop a larger volume (greater mass/weight) of shot or sleeved to reduce the volume (less mass/weight) of shot.
You see 909, it is not about the pellet count, it is about weight. In Bob’s case, “all of mine drop just about 1 1/16 ounces of shot.”. Bob lists a weight of what all his bars drop, why, if volume were all that matters, why can’t he list the volume he loads to. Anyway, if the weight was dropped using Bob’s bars was with 7.5 high antimony shot, that is 27 grains, each pellet weighing 1.2 grains is 22 pellets, less than if the bar was to drop 9/8oz.

909 what you say may be true but the OP poster is asking a question about the volume and a gauge that will tell him the size of the shot charge needed. It doesn't say whether he has to much lead or to little. If it is to much the 22 pellets that John wants to put in certainly won't help the problem.
Bob Lawless

Bob, “909 what you say may be true”, in your case that may be true, not most, as most follow the advice of the reloading component manuals and not from, Bob. Then we have, “OP poster is asking a question about the volume and a gauge that will tell him the size of the shot charge needed. It doesn't say whether he has to much lead or to little.”. Bob, the OP does not need to tell you whether he has too much or too little lead, he is asking if that kind of tool exists. As the OP has seen many posts, “many different postings” of poor crimps, it sounds like if the tool existed it could be used prior to getting poor crimps, “markings indicating the shot charge that would fill the shell to the proper depth for a given shot weight to provide for a solid crimp without dishing or failing to completely close.”.

In your own words and I quote.

Good job Bob, yep, they were what I wrote.

Tell us please how many have you filed by hand???? If you think that isn't a project then you have never done any by filing.

Bob, it is not about me or what I have done, it is about you and what you could do and have said/written.

Are you absolutely sure that you never insinuated that a non-adjustable shot drop is to me?????

Hmmm, well Bob, no need to insist that a non-adjustable drop is to you, as you have said, “I can tell you I don't have an adjustable bar/bushing machine and all of mine drop just about 1 1/16 ounces of shot.” and “Remember I don't have an adjustable bushing”,seem to suggest your drops are non-adjustable, no. Though a simple file and tape can change that, your choice.

You see John when you buy a machine that is factory adjustable you just dial in the weight you want. If you buy a machine that isn't factory adjustable you can't. You insist that It is up to me to make it adjustable or in some way conform to the weight you say I should be able to get. Now John as far as I am concerned your insistence that I should modify my bar bushing makes it quite a bit more than being cheated.

You are funny, I have said, “If your happy with a 1 1/16oz drop, or your fixed volume that gives you 1 1/16 so be it, have at it.”, and “Again, if your happy excepting less than allowed, so be it.”, and “If you don't think having 22 less pellets in your load affects your outcomes, more power to you.”, and “If you are accepting the lower weight drop to save money or with a belief that using less pellets is an effective way compete equally, go ahead, that is your choice.”. Does that sound like I am insisting you make your machine adjustable? You can, and I would, but I have never insisted you do, your choice. You are a funny man.

Well John if a 1 1/8ounce charge of # 8's has 540 Pellets using Mag or Chilled shot tell me what difference the weight make please.
John as usual it doesn't matter how anyone else does it except that unless they do it the same way John does it they can't be right or have a satisfactory out come. If it isn't on the paper it isn't correct is it John???? So maybe you can tell us why the reloading machine manufacturers have been selling their machines this way for decades??????

Well Bob, first I would ask, is it your loading, that is dropping 540 pellets of #8, mag or chilled? Is this the charge of shot that your 1 1/8oz bar drops? That amount, 540 pellets you see, Bob, using the density listed as chilled is 409 pellets/oz. in the MEC manual is about 37.42gm. Using that density and adding 4% antimony it would be 36.85gm. Bob, 31.89gm is 1 1/8oz, above 32.85gm would exceed ATA rules.

Bob, it isn’t my way, it is the way as noted above by many manufacturers of the products we use to reload.

Shoot well.
John

 

You are funny, I have said, “If your happy with a 1 1/16oz drop, or your fixed volume that gives you 1 1/16 so be it, have at it.”, and “Again, if your happy excepting less than allowed, so be it.”, and “If you don't think having 22 less pellets in your load affects your outcomes, more power to you.”, and “If you are accepting the lower weight drop to save money or with a belief that using less pellets is an effective way compete equally, go ahead, that is your choice.”. Does that sound like I am insisting you make your machine adjustable? You can, and I would, but I have never insisted you do, your choice. You are a funny man.

John I never said you were insisting that I make my machine adjustable. I said, "Now John as far as I am concerned your insistence that I should modify my bar bushing makes it quite a bit more than being cheated. Nothing I said says you are insisting I make my bar/bushing adjustable, I repeat Nothing I said.

Now John if the best you have is fabricated statements about what I have said (not to mention what you have quoted) you sure must want to win your argument pretty bad.

You have provided all this about manufacturer statements in their owners manuals. Yet you ignore the other facts given such as chilled shot tables, which list all details that about shot by charge pellet size, number of pellets and other useful information.

Yet you then say to 909.

"You see 909, it is not about the pellet count, it is about weight".

If it is about weight and not pellet count why do they put that information in the owners manual???? Just for you to ignore John???? I think not because as you should be able to read 1 1/8 ounce charge list the pellet count the weight in grains. You have been using 7 1/2 shot as example 788 pellets while 8 have 460 pellets. Now that john seems to have a capability of a lot more than 22 pellets and it would appear that is about pellet count and not weight. Of course that is right up your alley ignoring what isn't important to your side of a discussion.


Bob Lawless

 

Bob,

You apparently wrote the following and within, is an accusation of fabrication. Seemingly a strong one.

John I never said you were insisting that I make my machine adjustable. I said, "Now John as far as I am concerned your insistence that I should modify my bar bushing makes it quite a bit more than being cheated. Nothing I said says you are insisting I make my bar/bushing adjustable, I repeat Nothing I said.
Now John if the best you have is fabricated statements about what I have said (not to mention what you have quoted) you sure must want to win your argument pretty bad.

Bob, that is all great to say, but I am afraid to say, you did.

You insist that It is up to me to make it adjustable

You have provided all this about manufacturer statements in their owners manuals. Yet you ignore the other facts given such as chilled shot tables, which list all details that about shot by charge pellet size, number of pellets and other useful information.

I said, "using the density listed as chilled is 409 pellets/oz. in the MEC manual".

If it is about weight and not pellet count why do they put that information in the owners manual???? Just for you to ignore John???? I think not because as you should be able to read 1 1/8 ounce charge list the pellet count the weight in grains. You have been using 7 1/2 shot as example 788 pellets while 8 have 460 pellets. Now that john seems to have a capability of a lot more than 22 pellets and it would appear that is about pellet count and not weight. Of course that is right up your alley ignoring what isn't important to your side of a discussion.

Bob,
The information is posted, as it is, as information. Notice right above the sizes, it says, “Approximate number of pellets per load (lead shot only)”. You have to realize the shot pellets are not always perfectly round, though pretty good. Also the pellets are not all the same size, though target type shot is by SAAMI within .005 of the stated size. So with in a bag of quality shot (say Lawrence Magnum) the pellets of say size #8 will be .090 +/- .005. Being that the pellets are not all the exact size, say for the noted chilled #8 shot generally has a given number of pellets + or minus. By SAAMI, pellet count could be + or – 10% of nominal. So the 10z example (28gm) could be 369 – 449 pellets. Interestingly enough shot of 7.5 of nominal size has 345 pellets and 8.5 of nominal size has 480 pellets.

Bob, you said, “You have been using 7 1/2 shot as example 788 pellets while 8 have 460 pellets.”. Bob, I have no idea where you get this information from, what are you talking about?

Then you said, “Now that john seems to have a capability of a lot more than 22 pellets and it would appear that is about pellet count and not weight. Of course that is right up your alley ignoring what isn't important to your side of a discussion.”.

Bob, I said, “Anyway, if the weight was dropped using Bob’s bars was with 7.5 high antimony shot, that is 27 grains, each pellet weighing 1.2 grains is 22 pellets, less than if the bar was to drop 9/8oz.”. The statement clearly depicts the condition of the statement. Of course if a smaller shot was used, more pellets would be there or if the 7.5 shot bigger than nominal it would be less, just an example, information for you, like the pellet count table. No information to ignore Bob, it is all in the manuals and or SAAMI guide, you have yours, correct?

what a load !!!
that cylinder that the shot fall into is not about EITHER weight or pellet count. It's about VOLUME and that's all it can be about since it has no idea WTF you're gonna stuff in there. YOU have to decide what you're looking for and then decide if what you you have is good enough.
MY GOD, PEOPLE !!!! Is the weather really as bad as all that?

999, you are about as funny as Bob. Please re-read this thread. Reloading both powder and shot is based on weight. Yes, as an efficient, cost effective way of dropping like size and like density materials is through a volumetric system. Though it does have drawbacks, one of which is if the density of the material changed, size of the material changed or both size and density of the material changed, the weight dropped, through the same hole (volume) in the charge bar has been filled will be different, either heavier or lighter than it was before the conditions changed.

---------
From the MEC manual,

Chilled shot weighs more than magnum shot of the same pellet size because of the percentage of antimony being used. The higher the antimony level the shot weighs.

Note --- it is recommended that powder and shot charges always be checked with a reliable scale. When checking these charges, do it during normal operation of the machine.
------------

Now why check shot charge with a scale, if as Bob says, "...the only thing I would be concerned with is the volume drop".

Shot_______ Velocity. Wad______ Primer______ Red Dot American Select
(gram)_____ (fps). _____________________ ___ (grains) (psi) (grains) (psi)
24_________ 1345___ Fed 12SO ___Fio. 616_____ 20.5 8700. 22.0 7800

909, above is a load listed out of the Alliant Manual, please point to the volume section. As I have asked Bob, I will ask you, what volume, would you use in reloading this. Would it be the same whether it was chilled 9’s or 6% antimony 7’s? Be specific if you can.

I decide what to run thru that vol and then evaluate if that vol is providing what I want.

Interesting 909, when you say, “evaluate” and “providing what I want”, what are you asking for, “what I want” and what are you evaluating?

Shoot well.
John

 

what a load !!!

that cylinder that the shot fall into is not about EITHER weight or pellet count. It's about VOLUME and that's all it can be about since it has no idea WTF you're gonna stuff in there. YOU have to decide what you're looking for and then decide if what you you have is good enough.

MY GOD, PEOPLE !!!! Is the weather really as bad as all that?

 

what a load !!!

that cylinder that the shot fall into is not about EITHER weight or pellet count. It's about VOLUME and that's all it can be about since it has no idea WTF you're gonna stuff in there.

OK 909 then tell us how do you measure the volume that you have dropped from your machine?????

Bob Lawless

 

I decide what to run thru that vol and then evaluate if that vol is providing what I want.

Why you insist on making this more than Tab A / Slot B is beyond me. You need to get into those dancing angels discussions or sumpin.

I mean, it's a fooking shotgun. Get over it.

 

Why you insist on making this more than Tab A / Slot B is beyond me. You need to get into those dancing angels discussions or sumpin.

I made a statement that has been a very simple process for me for years. I was taken to task for what I said by someone that dials in his shot charges to a weight by the scales. He also says and I quote.

We are talking about safety, as well. I think I can safely assume at least 3 of you would except a 1 1/8 labeled bar and use it with 1 1/8oz data even if the amounts that were being thrown were heavy, maybe as much as 1/16oz heavy, and that my friend is not safe or within the rules(ATA)

The part about not being within the rules is correct. However where did he get the statement that a shot charge being 1/16 ounce heavy is not safe????? Is that something he made up (assumption on his part) if not what reloading manual did he get that out of, as I would like to see that.

All I have been doing is protecting my statement. As I said originally the weight is not a necessary measurement. A consistent shot drop is more important than getting 492 gr.

So I am not making it Tab A/ Slot B. The person insistence of the correct weight is a must seems to be making it Tab A/Slot B.

Bob Lawless

 

OK, anyone have a bushing for 1 oz. exactly, of reclaimed?