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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To accuse a shooter of attempting to 'cheat' under the following scenario?

In a major tournament the scorekeepers/referees were not trained to turn off the mic's between post changes and squad changes. The result was that any time anyone touched a speaker, cleared their throat, closed a gun, coughed, and even as the wind gusted the machine would throw targets. As squad leader I would ask if my squad was ready and looking ( my eyes on squad mates ) and out would go a target. I would then ask if the scorekeeper was ready ( my eyes on the scorekeeper ) and out would go a target. I would then turn and look downfield and ask for a look target. That is a minimum of 3. Post change comes up, speakers get moved, I am still looking to see that the rotating shooter declares himself/herself ready and there are as many as 8 targets thrown as the squad moves speakers and close guns. This happened on almost all the fields I shot ( 11 events, 22 fields, some repeats. ) and I watched it happen all during the tournament. Now on to the accusation;

One person has constant sinus drainage and habitually clears his nose and throat just prior to calling his first target on a post. He doesn't like his voice to go squeaky during his call. Until someone he was outshooting complained that they thought he was calling for more look pairs than he was entitled to during a doubles event and he was confronted he didn't think anything about it. He wasn't looking downfield ( I've watched him and know that most of the time he isn't looking as he clears his airways ) and wasn't consciously calling for the targets. So given the above paragraph was it fair to conclude that this shooter was trying to cheat? He knows he wasn't but his integrity has been questioned. I put it to the ATA shooters here whether he should be censured as a result of the failure of the scorekeepers to perform a common sense job of turning off and making dead the microphones during the changes.

Don T
 

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Poor staff training...
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Poor staff training...
I agree but still the question remains. Is it fair to question a competitors integrity under that circumstance?

Don T
 

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I would respond - using the baseball analogy.

Running to first base - ball is thrown. It is a tie - tie goes to the runner.

I think the same would be true here - if you cannot prove that it was intentional, and given your description of what was happening you would be very hard pressed to make a case for cheating, then there was no cheating.
 

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Since, according to your original post, he wasn't shooting lead-off I'm not sure what advantage would be gained by seeing extra targets. In singles targets are variable so seeing one doesn't tell you anything about where the next one will be. In doubles if you aren't shooting lead-off you already get to see at least one free pair (and maybe 4 free pairs if you are shooting post 5).

If this was happening when he shot lead-off you might consider it trying to take advantage of the situation, but not shooting lead-off it seems to be a stretch. They should be turning off the voice activators between posts, after a squad finishes, but in my opinion that is more to keep the cost of targets down and not so much to prevent cheating. Someone is paying for all of those extra targets.

Scott
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Since, according to your original post, he wasn't shooting lead-off I'm not sure what advantage would be gained by seeing extra targets. In singles targets are variable so seeing one doesn't tell you anything about where the next one will be. In doubles if you aren't shooting lead-off you already get to see at least one free pair (and maybe 4 free pairs if you are shooting post 5).

If this was happening when he shot lead-off you might consider it trying to take advantage of the situation, but not shooting lead-off it seems to be a stretch. They should be turning off the voice activators between posts, after a squad finishes, but in my opinion that is more to keep the cost of targets down and not so much to prevent cheating. Someone is paying for all of those extra targets.

Scott

I wasn't clear enough Scott. He was indeed shooting leadoff. He wasn't on my squad ( where I was leadoff all week except for dubs ) but I watched him and as I said most of the time his head was turned away from the field as he cleared his passages.

Don T
 

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Doesn't sound like cheating to me. Like "HSLDS" said, "poor staff training". I see that all the time when kids are used for scorer and they just don't know any better and haven't been told about turning the speakers off in between rotation. Always see targets fly until everyone settles down. Steve
 

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Ultimately poor staff training, they just need to turn them off between post changes.I guess if you look at this happening a lot on a multi squad basis because targets are getting thrown during voice call movements your just wasting targets.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Ultimately poor staff training, they just need to turn them off between post changes.I guess if you look at this happening a lot on a multi squad basis because targets are getting thrown during voice call movements your just wasting targets.

Just got back from the gunclub. Talked to another person who was at the same shoot. He told me that he watched 26 targets thrown on ONE post change. Nobody looking, nobody calling. The 'trappers' didn't know any better I guess but it was a huge waste of targets.

Don T
 

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Sounds like many problems here, but in regards to your friend, either he should not lead a squad and should clear his sinuses during the firing of a gun by another squad mate.

Or

Before taking the field, he should tell the puller/score keeper, to turn off the trap at the end of each post round and not to turn it on again until he (the squad leader) signals the scorekeeper with a thumbs up or something. And maybe take some Mucinex.

Too late to do anything about repairing his integrity for this particular shoot, but he should make changes in his shooting routine to prevent questions next time.
 

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Seriously 26 targets on one post change? The had to be conversation going on ect. because just walking and moving the voice calls would be minimal.So 26 targets would mean 5 targets per shooter plus 1. Something definitely wrong there for sure.
 

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As said above by several...many issues going on here in this scenario. Poor trap help training is the main culprit that anything is being questioned. As for the "cheater"...I don't see it as cheating and would not question his integrity if I was shooting with him. I guess it could be said that he could have taken a step back, or turned his head away and cleared his sinuses to keep from throwing a pair, but had the speaker been turned off as it should have been, this would never have been an issue.

I hate to speculate, but it sounds like someone got butt hurt that they got beat and are looking for a scape goat and excuses???
 

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Ok so I thinking about this and if you had 26 extra targets thrown on one post change and voice calls are being used there is a 1.5 delay befor the next bird gets thrown and that would be with the voice calls receiving pretty much constant noise signal of conversation or ect. it took them 40 to 50 seconds to change posts?I shoot trap with my dad who is 82 and he gets from post 5 to 1 and ready to shoot way faster than that.If that squad kept to their ave. extra birds they would burn thru a extra case of targets in on round of 25.Something sounds really off with the whole thing.
 

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Even untrained the scorer should have had the common sense to turn off the mics if that many targets were flying and being wasted...Bill
 

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Even untrained the scorer should have had the common sense to turn off the mics if that many targets were flying and being wasted...Bill

"Common sense", you oughta quit!!! When is the last time you saw that used? After all, they weren't paying for em, so why should they worry? Maybe the controller was on when they had it handed to them and didn't know how to turn it off.

GneJ
 

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Ok so I thinking about this and if you had 26 extra targets thrown on one post change and voice calls are being used there is a 1.5 delay befor the next bird gets thrown and that would be with the voice calls receiving pretty much constant noise signal of conversation or ect. it took them 40 to 50 seconds to change posts?I shoot trap with my dad who is 82 and he gets from post 5 to 1 and ready to shoot way faster than that.If that squad kept to their ave. extra birds they would burn thru a extra case of targets in on round of 25.Something sounds really off with the whole thing.
I agree something doesn't sound right. Remember it was throwing doubles so it was still tripped 13 times. Even though I'm not paying for the clays I still hate to see them get away without being shot at. I like shooting the lookers on sporting clays too. Who knows .... Maybe each shooter tripped over the speaker and got tangled up.;)
 

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Sounds like this gentleman may have something like "COPD" and is unable to control his coughing - that's too bad. Certainly the mics need turned off, as noted by most, but maybe the scorers were never told. Kids (if they were), and even adults, probably weren't doing it on purpose. If the guy doesn't have some kind of "condition" has he been talked to about his noise level and false bird launches? Sounds like a little instruction, to all involved, might solve any suggestion that the guy was/is cheating.
 

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In the scenario you present, I do not think it fair to accuse the competitor of cheating for "clearing his throat". It is regrettable that clay bird competition has allowed alternate calls for the target when the command "Pull" is all that is needed for clarity. I have served as trapper for many, many squads in Trap, Skeet and Sporting Clays where no voice-control equipment was available. The assortment of grunts, groans, etc that many shooters use to call for the clay is nothing short of amazing. -Ed
 

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Some of you guys are missing an important point . . . you ARE paying for the targets. Ever wonder why targets are $25 or $27 or $30 per 100 now? Part of it is to cover the cost of all the targets thrown that never get shot at.
 
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