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So what does an expensive 15 trap bunker offer that couldn't be accomplished with an affordable wobble set-up with harder, faster targets?

Why did international trap take the expensive route?
 

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Different sized targets, harder angles, and a house flush with the ground. I don't think you can wind a wobble machine to bunker speeds. There is also limitations on the shells.
 

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Wobble trap is just that....wobble trap. Bunker is a different thing entirely.

Your question is understandable, but they really are two different animals. If you shoot both, you see the difference immediately.
 

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No one ever said it was better. It's different....like apples and oranges.

As to how the game evolved and why it was chosen for international competition, I can't help you with that question.
 

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So why is bunker a better format for international competition?
Better? Or just -is- . Different games different equipment. International football is different from American football.
 

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And that couldn't be done without a uber-expensive 15 trap layout?
Ive seen a company that makes a machine that runs on a rail system from station to station so you only have 3 throwers but it's about the same cost and not regulation for actual competitions. The real cost I don't believe is the machines it's more the complicated computer system that runs everything.

If you want a deal on throwers there was a person selling his bunker throwers on here not too long ago in Florida.

Dry fire is also an option, but it isn't the real thing.
 

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In bunker it's like shooting all the targets from post 3 as the 3 machines for each post are very close together and directly in front of each post. You can certainly wind a Pat trap up to bunker speed and you can throw the harder targets if you buy them. You get more variance in target presentation with wobble and by moving around the machine in an arc.

Bunker machines are a lot smaller and simpler than a Pat trap because they don't have to oscillate as they are locked in place.

If you can shoot wobble proficiently, I can't see that bunker is any great magnitude harder. I have shot both with my BT99. Last time on wobble I dropped 1 and on my first round of bunker with it I shot a 20. My 99 shoots a 20 inch high pattern and it was difficult to get it down on the flat targets but the high ones were no problem. In either case, the targets are just higher, lower, wider and faster and that just means a little faster swing tempo.

People enjoy both sports because breaking targets is fun.
 

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If you can shoot wobble proficiently, I can't see that bunker is any great magnitude harder. I have shot both with my BT99. Last time on wobble I dropped 1 and on my first round of bunker with it I shot a 20. My 99 shoots a 20 inch high pattern and it was difficult to get it down on the flat targets but the high ones were no problem. In either case, the targets are just higher, lower, wider and faster and that just means a little faster swing tempo.
Then few times I shot bunker you had to take 2 shots. The dam thing was set at speeds of a Jet fighter.. How do you shoot 2 shots with the Bt99?
 

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If you can shoot wobble proficiently, I can't see that bunker is any great magnitude harder.
Well....there's wobble and there's international wobble. One of our Pat traps is currently set for a wobble league shoot. Shot it recently for the first time in a few years and I broke the first 80 I shot at.

A hundred yards away we have an international wobble field. I've shot a couple thousand targets off it without ever running 25.

Bunker may not be harder than international wobble, but both are "a magnitude harder " to straight than ATA-speed wobble.
 

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With its name, Olympic Trap, as suggested, this discipline was developed with universal fairness in mind, while at the same time, being difficult. The fairness is what requires the 15 machines, so that each shooter sees the exact same targets from each shooting position, 2 left, 2 right and one straightaway(ish). This way there was a "fair competition," since everyone shot the SAME TARGETS under the same circumstances.

No one machine setup could provide this.

So, it's not X is a better shotgun discipline than Y, though one may be more difficult than the other to master/excel, depending on the shooter.

From one shotgun shooter to another, I can say that any time I am shooting my shotgun, it's all good. Sure it's "better to break them all" but I will take good any day because it means I am shooting my shotgun.
 

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If you are talking a practice facility, I think you can make a wobble trap work just fine. As noted, one of the reasons for the 15 trap bunker layout is to have an equal distribution of targets for all competitors. For practice this is unnecessary. I helped set up a Beomat wobble, and though we didn't meet all the criteria,( the angles came wide of center), we could throw a 45 degree target and by modifying the elevation cam throw a 1-1/2-3m target 76m from a ground level trap. One thing we couldn't do was place the throwing arm 1/2m below the top of the roof as we weren't allowed to modify or change the carousel to the international one Beomat has available. This caused the wide targets to leave well wide of the centerline, but I think the correct carousel would solve this. To get the 76 m, international targets were necessary, but the machine would handle that change.
No, we could not vary the speed as with a bunker, but anyone who can identify a 60 mph target as compared to a 64 mph target in the span of .6 seconds while trying to get the air between the barrels to hit high C so the gun is moving fast enough to catch the target, is a better man than me!!!

Chuck
 

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If you want every competitor to see the exact same targets. All the targets should be thrown from the same traps... period.

In using 15 traps, one has to acknowledge the inherent variability... the traps may function very similar to each other, but anything made, installed, adjusted and maintained by man, will be imperfect.

That said, using one locked trap, we can see how targets vary...

Respectfully offered...
 

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Bunker trap has several different schemes for setting the different target patterns. IIRC, there are 9 schemes. So even though each shooter gets two lefts, two rights and one up the gut, each scheme is different by varying the target height, speed and angle; from a worm raper to a sky buster or something anyplace in between. The center target is rarely straight away, usually a few degrees off of center and hauling ass at warp 7+. Each shooter gets the same pattern of targets but in a random order.

Example: After shooting say the first target, a left target from any post, your next target from that same post, first after rotating through each of the other posts; will be another left, a right or a center launch. So if you're a mental genius, you, by process of elimination can figure out what your next target will be. Using simple sidewalk math, it's a 25% or is it 33% chance of another left, a right or a center, 4 targets left to be shot from the 3 presented from that post. Probability be damned! Then, the next target will be at a 33% (1 of the 3 available) unless you did draw the second left as your second target. Then you know you're gonna get a right or center launch as your remaining targets are 2 rights and a center. And the next target will be a 50% probability between the last two targets as to which one you will draw but both could be the same. However, not usually. The only ones I could keep track of were the center targets. After having shot at the 5 center targets, I knew I wouldn't draw any more center targets. From my explanation, you may not agree on the %ages but I hope you get the concept.

Question to the reader: Do you think some very accomplished bunker shooters can keep track of all 25? Or should they?

Ernie
 

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For years, I serviced 4 Pat Wobble Traps and set the targets for the TN Junior Olympic Competition at Holly Fork, TN. The first thing we did was to put three bands on the machine. They will not throw 60 MPH targets for long with two new bands, will not get there with well used bands. The machine can be backed down to throw 44 MPH ATA targets. Three bands will last a year. Pat has longer bolts to accommodate the extra band, so they are on board with this modification.

Everything has to be right on the Pat. Arm timing, new throwing arm rubber, correct brake setting, good brush and O-rings. Also, the pump has a lot more strain on it, so a new style pump in good shape is in order. Old, tired hydraulic lines should be replaced. Use the correct type of synthetic oil in the pump.

The Pat will handily throw a 60 degree target, 30 degrees each side. Rules were changed to accommodate the Pat Trap, since they are so popular, and rightfully so. I wrote the upper and lower angle on the trap house wall next to the switch box, but a Senior moment has kicked in and I cannot remember the angles. We set them with a digital Protractor so all four fields threw the same target. (MAY have been 13 degrees min and 28 degrees max)

I made a tool out of a defective Interrupter that can be used to get hard left/right/up/down the first time, every time. Cost nothing. It works well to set left and right ATA targets as well.

Folks might grouse that the Pat will not throw a Bunker speed target. The fact is, it was made for ATA birds, and that it is flexible enough to throw a screamer almost 50% faster than the original design called for with good reliability is a testament to its good design.

They will throw Standard Pheasant (Sporting) targets at 60 mph reliably, but much faster and you start getting target breakage.

Some trap machines, like the Promatic, will throw a 70+ MPH Bunker-speed target, with the correct spring. When I took the factory repair class at Roger Gascoigne's range in FL a couple of years ago, the Promatic guys set up a machine that threw a Sporting target over 100 yards, without target breakage. This target would perform suborbital maneuvers, and was incredible to watch. The machine made little noise, smoother than silk, and absolutely slung the paint off the target. We did not have a radar gun. Would like to know the speed on that one. LOL

Edited to mention a fellow thought he had the Scheme memorized at an Olympic shoot several years ago. Last target up, here comes a hard left for the Gold Medal. OOPS! Hard right came out, had to settle for Silver. Don't try to memorize, SEE THE TARGET, BREAK THE TARGET.
 
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