Interesting Target Setting Article<-Good Read
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My god man do you know what a paragraph is????
Tom Strunk
Tom Strunk
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is a paragraph anything like a pie chart??
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·<blockquote>"My god man do you know what a paragraph is????"</blockquote>
This forum doesn't format a cut-and-paste copy. Even if that article had been 5 paragraphs, it still renders as only 1 unless the poster goes through it and replaces the missing formatting. The copy in the text box will APPEAR to be formatted correctly when the copy is pasted in for posting. but it will lose all the apparent formatting when it hits the board. That's why there are so many long one paragraph posts on here.
Mike
This forum doesn't format a cut-and-paste copy. Even if that article had been 5 paragraphs, it still renders as only 1 unless the poster goes through it and replaces the missing formatting. The copy in the text box will APPEAR to be formatted correctly when the copy is pasted in for posting. but it will lose all the apparent formatting when it hits the board. That's why there are so many long one paragraph posts on here.
Mike
Jim, to address just this point you raised: "many of the gun clubs have failed to relocate the 10 yard stake and 50 yard stake to correlate to the new equipment for proper target setting."
Not sure what the ATA reply was but you should be aware that ATA rules for the placement of the 50 yard and 10 yard stakes that you are talking about have nothing to do with where the trap is located in the house.
Not sure what the ATA reply was but you should be aware that ATA rules for the placement of the 50 yard and 10 yard stakes that you are talking about have nothing to do with where the trap is located in the house.
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Dear Jim
Mediocre targets and those set for a Board Member or "hot shot" has caused me to practically stop shooting registered, and to find a club other than one I have belonged to since 1958. Skeet has again taken a front seat for me, especially with the small bores.
Shot is not cheap, fuel is not cheap, and the club and shoot managers that say "shoot them where they are" are not getting my discretionary income.
A club near me has not hooped their Skeet fields since a big shoot LAST FALL. I do not go to that club, even though I have several hundred $$$ worth of pre paid shooting there. If they do not go under, maybe they will eventually get a competent manager. (sigh)
Mediocre targets and those set for a Board Member or "hot shot" has caused me to practically stop shooting registered, and to find a club other than one I have belonged to since 1958. Skeet has again taken a front seat for me, especially with the small bores.
Shot is not cheap, fuel is not cheap, and the club and shoot managers that say "shoot them where they are" are not getting my discretionary income.
A club near me has not hooped their Skeet fields since a big shoot LAST FALL. I do not go to that club, even though I have several hundred $$$ worth of pre paid shooting there. If they do not go under, maybe they will eventually get a competent manager. (sigh)
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Roger Coveleskie - Being that we both live in Arizona, would you please come to me and tell me to my face what you wrote above.
Tom Strunk
Tom Strunk
The comment about placement of the 10 and 50 yard markers is regrettable in an other wise well written article.
I have much difficulty in understanding why any gun club would not make every effort to present the best possible targets under the existing conditions. And, the club should recognize that if the conditions change, it may require a change in the targets. An target setter who consistently sets targets to the 50 yard marker fails to understand how targets should be set.
I just returned from a 4 day shoot in NC where the conditions prevented the club from throwing good targets. However, the club did do the best target setting job possible under the less than ideal conditions. I appreciate several fellows in the squads behind me catching my hat as it blew back to them.
Pat Ireland
I have much difficulty in understanding why any gun club would not make every effort to present the best possible targets under the existing conditions. And, the club should recognize that if the conditions change, it may require a change in the targets. An target setter who consistently sets targets to the 50 yard marker fails to understand how targets should be set.
I just returned from a 4 day shoot in NC where the conditions prevented the club from throwing good targets. However, the club did do the best target setting job possible under the less than ideal conditions. I appreciate several fellows in the squads behind me catching my hat as it blew back to them.
Pat Ireland
G
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·<blockquote>"You have double click "enter" to get paragraphs.
Says so just above the message box."</blockquote>
Yes, Eric, I know...
But if you copy and paste a 5 paragraph article into the text box to post it, it will appear as 5 paragraphs in the text box but only 1 paragraph when it appears in the forum. You need to backspace through the blank areas between the paragraphs, removing them, and do the "enter X 2" thing to get paragraphs to appear in the posted version.
Mike
Says so just above the message box."</blockquote>
Yes, Eric, I know...
But if you copy and paste a 5 paragraph article into the text box to post it, it will appear as 5 paragraphs in the text box but only 1 paragraph when it appears in the forum. You need to backspace through the blank areas between the paragraphs, removing them, and do the "enter X 2" thing to get paragraphs to appear in the posted version.
Mike
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Joebl,
I thnk what Pat was saying is,
If you set to the 50 yard stake alone, you may end up throwing targets that are to fast to low, or with a tail wind to high and to slow, any number of odd combinations,
With the cronos and radar guns available you can set a reasonable target, that through the zone that they should be shot are the right speed and right height.
The first three years or so that I have played this game, I would get to the club that was holding the shoot, and after getting registered or while waiting for the window to open pace along with the target setters. It was amazing to see what very little wind can to do those targets, or how well they can be set in howling winds.
I don't have the rule book with me, what I do remember is that all the target setters I have ever watched, all said it's at speed either crono or radar, and within 5 yards of the stake what more could we ask for?
Al
I thnk what Pat was saying is,
If you set to the 50 yard stake alone, you may end up throwing targets that are to fast to low, or with a tail wind to high and to slow, any number of odd combinations,
With the cronos and radar guns available you can set a reasonable target, that through the zone that they should be shot are the right speed and right height.
The first three years or so that I have played this game, I would get to the club that was holding the shoot, and after getting registered or while waiting for the window to open pace along with the target setters. It was amazing to see what very little wind can to do those targets, or how well they can be set in howling winds.
I don't have the rule book with me, what I do remember is that all the target setters I have ever watched, all said it's at speed either crono or radar, and within 5 yards of the stake what more could we ask for?
Al
"As clubs rebuild their trap houses with new shooting pads, little if no thought is given to rechecking the 10 yard marker, some time it now is the 13 yard marker, you see the club continues to use the old 10 yard marker after a new house was constructed to accommodate the new automated trap equipment along with new shooting pads."
I don't get this. Are you saying if you move the trap further back in the house you should move the stake and the pads? Please show me in the rule book where it says that.
I don't get this. Are you saying if you move the trap further back in the house you should move the stake and the pads? Please show me in the rule book where it says that.
Im actually not sure why there is a 50 yard stake. In my experience (limited I admit)when we set the fields, we set the hoop at 10 yards set the height and the birds at 41MPH they go about 45-48 yards. This being in the morning. The Pat trap will warm up and within an hour or so the traps need adjusting as the birds will creep to 44-45 MPH and go to the stake. Then a head wind usually comes up causing the birds to "face" The experienced squads will ask us to adjust the trap and we will.The hard lefts and right are set at 45 feet from the 50 yard center post.It don't take a a rocket scientist to realise that a cross breeze, head wind, tail wind, will effect the bird flight and as mentioned above, all you can do is set them as good as you can. I think that the various associations that govern this sport should over see the installations of new traps to insure there is a consistant trap placement in a new house. If the club intents to throw registered birds. The shoot we had before last we even used lasers. However with all the variables of background, undulations of the fields, winds that are unpredictable, some houses have one trap some have another, ect ect ect. The best service a club can offer is to accomidate what the shooters want.Ive been a line boss numerous times and as others can atest to? everyone has a target they like to shoot. Even if we shot in a dome with a controlled enviroment it wouldn't be perfect. To ask for perfect birds is not even reasonable. It is for this reason we have almost all experienced days when no matter the target? we are just off. If this sport was easy everyone would be AAA 27yards. its for this reason I don't like marathons.
Now Imma piss some people off. I believe that marathons are mostly used to boost an average that was deminished because of a score at a club that for any one of a hundred reasons went bad. Shooter pulls out. I think there should be a rule that states " a shooter is allowed to pull out of 2 shoots for any reason, after the second time said shooter is not allowed to shoot any "registered marathon" for the remainder of that year". Now the big whoey here is at least in the PITA is your probaby not going to make the ALLSTARS. However the people that stick it out in adverse conditions may have a shot at the ALLSTARS and why shouldn't they?
JMHO (inexperienced admitted)
Dennis
Now Imma piss some people off. I believe that marathons are mostly used to boost an average that was deminished because of a score at a club that for any one of a hundred reasons went bad. Shooter pulls out. I think there should be a rule that states " a shooter is allowed to pull out of 2 shoots for any reason, after the second time said shooter is not allowed to shoot any "registered marathon" for the remainder of that year". Now the big whoey here is at least in the PITA is your probaby not going to make the ALLSTARS. However the people that stick it out in adverse conditions may have a shot at the ALLSTARS and why shouldn't they?
JMHO (inexperienced admitted)
Dennis
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This is interesting. I very seldom see anyone ask for a trap to be reset at a registered shoot, and I live in windy NW Ohio. Perhaps few of us know a "legal" target when we see it. On the other hand, we realise ALL of our local clubs are run by volunteers with their hands full, and I believe most shooters know "legal" birds are hard to come by here, nor do we want to stress our volunteers any more than they already are.
After shooting out normal targets, legal targets seem like creme puffs.
They throw 'em....We shoot 'em
After shooting out normal targets, legal targets seem like creme puffs.
They throw 'em....We shoot 'em
Insight,
Now that's something new to me. I haven't seen a club move a trap house forward or backward. Does this happen often?
The original post did say the 10 yard and 50 yard stakes should be moved if the Pat trap is placed further back in the house than the Winchester. That's just dumb.
Now that's something new to me. I haven't seen a club move a trap house forward or backward. Does this happen often?
The original post did say the 10 yard and 50 yard stakes should be moved if the Pat trap is placed further back in the house than the Winchester. That's just dumb.
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I believe I would be run out of our club if I asked them to qualify that our targets are the "best legal target they could throw". Nope, not me. I'm just glad I got a place to shoot.
I do firmly believe that every club should throw the very best targets under the conditions. In reading the above posts, it has become clear to me that many shooters and clubs do not realize where the 10 yard height pole should be located. Measuring 10 and 50 yard markers from a point 2.5 feet back from the front of the trap house is OK, measuring the same points a 26 yards and 66 yards from post three is better. Measuring these points from any part of the trap machine is incorrect.
If a club installs a new trap in an existing house, the angle of the bird (amount of face that shows) may change but the point of the 10 and 50 yard markers will not change. If the new trap machine ends up a little farther forward in the house than the old machine, the targets will emerge with a little more face showing. This does not change the placement of the height pole or the distance markers. These should remain at 26 and 66 yards from post three.
Joe- In my above post, I stated that a club that throws targets to a correctly placed 50 yard marker in any type of wind is not setting the best possible targets. I believe that after the targets are set to the proper height and distance, a knowledgeable person still must stand on the 16 yard line and closely look at the targets. If the walkways are not level with the target on the arm of the trap, measuring height from the target on the trap can produce unfavorable results. With a strong tail wind, targets may need to be set 11 feet high 10 yards from the trap and may only need to travel 45 yards.
Pat Ireland
If a club installs a new trap in an existing house, the angle of the bird (amount of face that shows) may change but the point of the 10 and 50 yard markers will not change. If the new trap machine ends up a little farther forward in the house than the old machine, the targets will emerge with a little more face showing. This does not change the placement of the height pole or the distance markers. These should remain at 26 and 66 yards from post three.
Joe- In my above post, I stated that a club that throws targets to a correctly placed 50 yard marker in any type of wind is not setting the best possible targets. I believe that after the targets are set to the proper height and distance, a knowledgeable person still must stand on the 16 yard line and closely look at the targets. If the walkways are not level with the target on the arm of the trap, measuring height from the target on the trap can produce unfavorable results. With a strong tail wind, targets may need to be set 11 feet high 10 yards from the trap and may only need to travel 45 yards.
Pat Ireland
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Pat,
Thanks for assisting in this discussion. In reading the ATA rules it looks like the trap house shall be 7'6" to 8'6" in length and the same in width. It shall be 2'2" to 2'10" in height above the height of station 3 and placed on a centerline with an extension of station 3 so that if you have a handicap layout the 27 yard station three and 16 yard station 3 will be on the centerline with the trap house.
The trap will be installed in the trap house so that the centerline of the trap will be 16 yards from the front of station 3, which is designated as point B. From point B you then measure 10 yards on the extended centerline to arrive at the placement for the hoop, and an additional 40 yards to arrive at the distance stake, assuming level ground.
Now a couple of questions: The centerline of the machine is this the pivot point of the arm or something else? There is no designation as to the height of the machine in the rules so what is the best. Without getting into the minutia of setting the stakes for measuring the angles is there a good rule of thumb to use for this? I had been told that if the target was going straight away from a point half way between stations 1&2 for a right bird and 4&5 for a left bird you were really close, what say you.
Thanks again for your insight and this is a good thread to get everyone on the same sheet of music.
Jack Burch
Thanks for assisting in this discussion. In reading the ATA rules it looks like the trap house shall be 7'6" to 8'6" in length and the same in width. It shall be 2'2" to 2'10" in height above the height of station 3 and placed on a centerline with an extension of station 3 so that if you have a handicap layout the 27 yard station three and 16 yard station 3 will be on the centerline with the trap house.
The trap will be installed in the trap house so that the centerline of the trap will be 16 yards from the front of station 3, which is designated as point B. From point B you then measure 10 yards on the extended centerline to arrive at the placement for the hoop, and an additional 40 yards to arrive at the distance stake, assuming level ground.
Now a couple of questions: The centerline of the machine is this the pivot point of the arm or something else? There is no designation as to the height of the machine in the rules so what is the best. Without getting into the minutia of setting the stakes for measuring the angles is there a good rule of thumb to use for this? I had been told that if the target was going straight away from a point half way between stations 1&2 for a right bird and 4&5 for a left bird you were really close, what say you.
Thanks again for your insight and this is a good thread to get everyone on the same sheet of music.
Jack Burch
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