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Discussion Starter #1
I was watching CNN last night and people was saying this isn't the time to bring out the 911 calls at the Sandy Hook shooting and CNN folks said they thought it was to help gun legislation pass and something get done about these mass shooting. My question is what gun legislation be passed that would stop a mentally ill person from taking unlocked guns or stealing guns from someone and killing others?
 

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jmunsell,

What would stop a "mentally ill person from taking unlocked guns or stealing guns from someone and killing others?" A requirement that legal gun owners keep their guns fully secured at all times. That means either on their person or in a facility, home/workplace/etc. that they control.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
By "that they control" you mean a government run facility that we have to pick up and drop off our guns?
 

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jmunsell,

No. Please read my post answer to your question more carefully.

"A requirement that legal gun owners keep their guns fully secured at all times. That means either on their person or in a facility, home/workplace/etc. that they control."

No outside agency would be involved. If a gun turned up in a crime, the original gun owner would have to show how the gun was taken from his controlled location.

Under the current laws, we gun owners have to be willing to accept that there will be more mass and individual shooting by individuals who got there guns either illegally or from unsecured locations. Part of the societal cost of our rights.
 

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What if the legal owner was shot multiple times and killed by the mentally ill son? Then the crazy SOB steals the guns. Once again, the government is passing laws that only burden the law abiding citizen!
 

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So if my truck is stolen and is involved in a fatality accident while being driven by the thief I should have a liability concern??? This is nuts! JPM
 

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About 20 years ago it became in vogue for mentally ill people to have their "rights" recognized. People who had been in secure facilities were turned out in the streets by the thousands.

In Wisconsin they passed the "51-42" legislation getting tax money for CBRF enterprises. (Community Based Residential Facility). These were halfway houses of a sort. A distant relative who had been destroyed by prescribed shock treatment wound up in one. From there, a great number were suddenly adjudged to be able to be on their own, and left.

Several serious crimes were the result in the coming years.

I saw a heck of a lot of mentally defective people in Phoenix, living on the streets. I'm sure other municipalities in the warm climate areas had the same problem.

Every one of the recent shooting incidents has been by a person with mental problems who was not properly addressed.

So let's go after the guns. Kind of like outlawing Bic lighters to prevent arson.

The people have to learn to blame themselves for what has happened.

HM
 

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Discussion Starter #8
They did something the same here a long time ago they shut down Salem's asylum for the mentally ill and took them to Portland and dropped them off on the streets. What a shame. Hard to say what to do with them I feel sorry there isn't more that can be done for them other then drug the hell out of them.

Oh and TRADERS I did understand later what you meant and your right there.
 

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I am all for the concept of safe storage and individual responsibility on an educated and voluntary basis when it comes to our firearms. Please note that I said VOLUNTARY! The one problem with this concept being' put into law' (as good as the idea may sound) is that all laws need a way to be enforced and who I would ask, is going to do that? Well, of course that would be law enforcement, just common sense isn't it? Now we run into the problem with the concept becoming law. As a gun owner you would now find that the only way to enforce this law is for law enforcement to enter your home to check.

This line of progression is not just an hypothesis as put forth by the 'slippery slope' worriers. It is reality and history, gentlemen. This progression of back door registration and eventual confiscation based upon the perspective of 'safe storage' has been used historically and in fact is in effect in multiple countries in the world presently. If you like the idea of losing the right to freedom from invasion of your home then go for it. If you think that I am fearful of a non-reality, take a look at Canadian law regarding safe storage of firearms. Great headway has been made in Canada as to a decades long and successful fight to rid the country of registration of long guns but I don't think you will ever see the lifting of safe storage laws. The worst part is that a great number of gun owners are for the law without actually realizing that one phone call from an upset anti gun neighbor who says she saw a gun sitting out instead of in the safe can have law enforcement coming in your front door. And yes, no warrant necessary since after all, you are a GUNOWNER.

If you would prefer to have to live without the protections against unreasonable search and seizure then just keep up with wanting to make this safe storage idea into law. Me, I prefer to be responsible for my own safe storage VOLUNTARILY. THANKS FOR LISTENING.....BUD
 

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<i>" "A requirement that legal gun owners keep their guns fully secured at all times. That means either on their person or in a facility, home/workplace/etc. that they control."

No outside agency would be involved. If a gun turned up in a crime, the original gun owner would have to show how the gun was taken from his controlled location."</i>

So you're saying the victim of a burglary could be charged with a crime?

Making a criminal out of the victim?

Furthermore, you said "original owner". I'm not responsible for what others do with guns I've sold or traded off.

What you want requires registration to find out who the LAST owner was.

Not only no, but hell no.

Focus on the criminal, not law abiding gun owners.

Start with 25 years in prison without parole for stealing a gun. And enforce it.
 

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The biggest problem with every aspect of every law that is currently in play is the lack of enforcement, example, when I was in my teens a family friend's daughter was murdered by her husband, she was 8 months pregnant and the baby also was killed. The husband was sentenced to 2 CONSECUTIVE LIFE TERMS WITHOUT THE POSSIBILITY OF PAROLE, in the legal world that translates to something completely different than what is says because we was up for parole in 13 years.
My point is we do not need any new laws, we just need to ENFORCE the ones we have!
As for the parolee, capitol punishment should have been the verdict.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Here a month or so ago I seen on the news a 10 year old kid that heard someone in his head tell him to shoot this other kid in school so he grabbed his fathers gun, not locked up, w/400 rounds of ammo and took it to school to shoot the other kid thank God he was caught before he did. Who was to blame here? How are we to get the news out there, LOCK UP YOUR DARN GUNS? Just sayen.

In almost every case in the past couple years it was guns stolen that put us in the boat we are now in with our components and ammo costing so much and the threat of taking our guns away.

I don't think the law has to be enforced by a cop coming into your house just that fact that you are responsible for your weapons or you could be made responsible with action if you don't keep them safe. No one come's into your home. Just a thought but I'm sure I'm wrong. LOL.
 

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jmunsell,

No you are not wrong. As gun owners it is our responsibility to make every effort to keep our guns out of the hands of those that shouldn't have them.

So, yes that means if anybody comes into your house, with or without permission, and picks up a gun laying on a table and proceeds to commit a crime with it, I do believe that owner has some moral responsibility and should have some legal responsibility.

You don't need house searches. As a gun owner you need to be able to explain how your gun got into the hands of someone it shouldn't have. If it was taken by force, you're off the hook. On the other hand if if you can't show that it was properly secured, you should have a problem.

I believe that the issue here is that as gun owners, many of us are not willing to take responsibility for gun violence that occurs from stolen or improperly owned guns. We act as if "So long as I've got mine", it's not my responsibility what someone else does. Given that approach, we should expect to continue to see the occasional mass killing, murder, etc. by people who got guns and shouldn't have.

If I remember correctly all of the mass killings that have occurred in the last few years were done by individuals that did not have to break into gun safes or rob gun stores to get their weapons. I think they got them from friends or family members.

JPM

Your responsibility should depend on how the truck was stolen. Did you leave it on the street with the keys in the ignition?

Brian,

"So you're saying the victim of a burglary could be charged with a crime?"

Yes, See my comments above.

" I'm not responsible for what others do with guns I've sold or traded off."

Under current federal laws you have no responsibility to determine the fitness to own a gun of any individual you plan on selling a gun to. So you right, you have no legal responsibility. What I am talking about is your moral responsibility. For you, once you have the money, your finished. I don't agree. When you consider how many postings on this site talk about the failure of people to take personal responsibility for their actions, I am surprised by your attitude.

When I sell a gun, I am very careful to sell to people I know well. Otherwise, I sell to an FFL.
 

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Using your logic, you appear to also advocate that if a family member or friend borrows your car, gets drunk, and kills someone, you should be criminally and civilly liable.
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Hmmmm so what your saying here Brian is lets leave our guns lay around when we know our kid is mentally deranged and not only that leave enough ammo to start a small war so our kid can kill a bunch of innocent school children and not suffer any consequence at all? Just wondering what the best coarse of action should be taken here.
 

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You did not answer my assertion about the vehicle.

Or if that's too tough, do you have all of your knives under lock and key? A kid can easily take a knife to school and kill others. Should you be held criminally and civilly liable if you fail to lock up your knives?
 

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I never take the keys out of my truck once it lock up in garage am i wrong. Keep a loaded handgun by my beb. No not in a lock box.Would take to long if i need in middle of the night.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
I'm just sayen. Whats the answer? Just to bad a mother didn't recognize she had a son with such a potential as to take a gun that was sitting there left out and killing 20 children. However she did pay the ultimate price.

You say I did not answer the question about the truck but yet you avoid the question I originally asked you just pose another question and ask me to answer it. I just asked a simple question. I don't know what legislation would stop innocent kids and grown ups from being killed by mentally disturbed people that have a gun laying in front of them and they decide to do it.

I'm a gun owner and I will fight tooth and nail to keep them but then on the other side of the coin I can see why non gun owners think the only way to stop it is to take the guns away. I sure hope that don't happen.

I suppose if a friend walked up to you and said I'm going out drinking can I use your truck and you loaned it to him and he killed someone then yes you should be held accountable but if you knew nothing about it then no. Seems they already do that thought don't they? Not sure.
 
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